Zeke or Jalen Ramsey 2 years later

[Sydla]

He runs a 4.59 40 and isn’t close to the back Zeke is. What impact has he made on the Chicago Bears? They’ve gone 3-13 and 5-11 with him. Try again!

LOL.

So Elliott would have made the Bears legit? Howard has similar stats on a much crappier Bears team that had a worse OL, QB and WRs.

Stop.

 

[KJJ]

LOL.

So Elliott would have made the Bears legit? Howard has similar stats on a much crappier Bears team that had a worse OL, QB and WRs.

Stop.

I’m not talking about the Bears I’m talking about what back would’ve impacted OUR team the most. We built an offense that is dependent on an explosive back. Howard regressed despite playing a full 16 games in 2017. He doesn’t have the speed to be explosive. What did he do to help the Bears QB situation? For the Bears to improve they need an elite QB. Only time will tell if they found one. Despite Dak’s strugggles and an average defense we still competed with Zeke in the lineup.

 

[OmerV]

Howard.

First, I don't think any reasonable person really thinks Howard is as good a RB as Elliott, but granted he is a good one and would likely have done a good job for Dallas. But you can't just fabricate a scenario where you substitute Howard for Elliott, as if it is a given we would have had Howard had we passed on Zeke. There were 23 RBs that got drafted in 2016, 9 of whom went higher than Howard and 2 more that went within the next 6 picks after Howard. Nobody viewed him among the elite of that RB class. The odds are if the Cowboys had passed on Zeke would have ended up with another of the 21 RB's not named Elliott or Howard, just as every team that drafted a RB not name Howard or Elliott did.

The fallacy in your thinking is you are treating a first round pick as if the point is to take a player at a position where it is impossible to find any other player anywhere else in the draft who could possbly make an impact, and that 's wrong thinking, and would be whether you are talking about Elliott or Ramsey ... RB or CB. Both outstanding RBs and CBs are sometimes found in later rounds. The point of drafting highter is to increase the odds of getting that kind of player.

 

[Jason 82 Witten]

You are the one who made the allegation.

It’s up to you to prove it.

Wrong...After seeing what Ramsey did this year and what happened with Zeke, anyone can say right now “Oh I knew all along Ramsey should have been the pick” If Zeke would have had a year like last year, and Ramsey hadn’t had the year he had and Jacksonville would have missed the playoffs, people would be saying “I knew all along Zeke should have been the pick”

So you prove it

 

[OmerV]

Wrong...After seeing what Ramsey did this year and what happened with Zeke, anyone can say right now “Oh I knew all along Ramsey should have been the pick”

A year ago Elliott looked like the better pick. Given Elliott's problems this year, and Ramsey's level of play this year, a good case can be made that Ramsey was the better pick. A year from now it may be back to Zeke, or it may not be. And, as you alluded to, people love to act as if they have it all together when they often are really just using hindsight and pretending.

No doubt some fans wanted Ramsey at the time. Myself, I wasn't that strong in either camp. Not that I was against either, but they both seemed like great choices to me. I thought either pick would have been justified, and still think that. I don't know why there has to be an absolute right or wrong here. There were similar arguments both for and against either at the time.

 

[Sydla]

I’m not talking about the Bears I’m talking about what back would’ve impacted OUR team the most. We built an offense that is dependent on an explosive back. Howard regressed despite playing a full 16 games in 2017. He doesn’t have the speed to be explosive. What did he do to help the Bears QB situation? For the Bears to improve they need an elite QB. Only time will tell if they found one. Despite Dak’s strugggles and an average defense we still competed with Zeke in the lineup.

Except you were talking about the Bears when you referenced their bad records as a put down of the Bears. The Bears, the last two years have been a much worse and less talented team than the Cowboys. You put Elliott on the Bears and they aren't a much better team, he doesn't turn their QB into an elite QB, etc.

Howard regressed? So did Elliott.

You literally are just grasping as straws now.

 

[Sydla]

Wrong...After seeing what Ramsey did this year and what happened with Zeke, anyone can say right now “Oh I knew all along Ramsey should have been the pick” If Zeke would have had a year like last year, and Ramsey hadn’t had the year he had and Jacksonville would have missed the playoffs, people would be saying “I knew all along Zeke should have been the pick”

So you prove it

I am not the one making an accusation. You made the accusation, you have to back it up.

You must not have been reading this board over the last two years including around the draft. There were large debates leading up to the draft and even after the draft whether the pick should have been Ramsey or Elliott.

So for you to say people are only saying this now because Ramsey had an elite 2nd season is just weak.

 

[KJJ]

Except you were talking about the Bears when you referenced their bad records as a put down of the Bears. The Bears, the last two years have been a much worse and less talented team than the Cowboys. You put Elliott on the Bears and they aren't a much better team, he doesn't turn their QB into an elite QB, etc.

Howard regressed? So did Elliott.



You literally are just grasping as straws now.

You’re the one grasping at straws because all you want to do is keep arguing all day. You’re the one who brought up Howard and I pointed out the Bears record with him and the fact their QBs still struggled. He started 13 games as a rookie and rushed for over 1300 yards but this season he started all 16 games, had 24 more carries and put up just over 1100 yards. He regressed!

Plus he’s not the receiver out of the backfield that Zeke is. Zeke's numbers were down because he missed six games due to a suspension where were you? Despite missing six games he was only 17 yards from having 1000 yard season. He scored 9 TDs in 10 games. Howard isn’t near the talent that Zeke is. You’re just wasting time.

 

[DIAF]

So that is why the Jaguars used a 1st round pick on Fournette last year?

Zeke and Fournette are special talents, along with Gurley but you can find RBs a LOT easier than you can find Corners like Ramsey.

 

[DIAF]

RBs like Zeke aren’t a dime a dozen. Don’t know how long you been following the Cowboys but if you were following the team back in the day would you have taken Deion over Emmitt? You can’t just stick any RB behind our OL and get the same exact results but some still don’t get that. Everything the Cowboys do on offense revolves around Zeke and the running game. We were rolling until he was suspended and it all came apart. No way does Ramsey make the type of impact on the team that Zeke has made. In 25 games played Zeke has scored 25 TDs.

There’s no possible way we go 13-3 last season with a rookie QB without Zeke. Swap Zeke for Ramsey and our defense would improve but not nearly to the extent our offense has improved with Zeke. Ramsey wouldn’t have the dramatic affect on the team that Zeke has had. Our offense wasn’t any good without him. We got to see for six games what life was like without Zeke and it was miserable.

You guys are all cherry picking with this "oh, you would have taken Deion over Emmitt, the greatest RB of all time" stuff but here's a simple fact.

Yes, special RB talents dont come along every day. But special corners are even RARER.

Do you think the Dallas offense would fall to pieces if we had a back like, say, Kareem Hunt instead of Zeke? I dont think it'd miss much of a step, honestly.

Look don't get me wrong having zeke is great but if given the choice between a pro bowl level corner or an elite RB, i will take the pro bowl corner and make do with a "Good" running back every time. If you need an excellent RB, you just draft one. If you need an excellent corner, you either have to draft one silly high, trade up to draft one high, or pay out the nose for one in free agency.

 

[OmerV]

You’re the one grasping at straws because all you want to do is keep arguing all day. You’re the one who brought up Howard and I pointed out the Bears record with him and the fact their QBs still struggled. He started 13 games as a rookie and rushed for over 1300 yards but this season he started all 16 games, had 24 more carries and put up just over 1100 yards. He regressed!

Plus he’s not the receiver out of the backfield that Zeke is. Zeke's numbers were down because he missed six games due to a suspension where were you? Despite missing six games he was only 17 yards from having 1000 yard season. He scored 9 TDs in 10 games. Howard isn’t near the talent that Zeke is. You’re just wasting time.

Howard isn't even an issue anyway. You guys are discussing this as if the Cowboys had the choice of Elliott in the first, or Ramsey in the first and Howard in the 4th or 5th, and as if the Cowboys somehow would have known Howard would be as good as he has been. They didn't have the choice, and they didn't know about him - no team did. Coming out of college Howard was merely a mid level prospect out of the 23 players drafted in 2016, and that's what his draft position reflects. No team regarded him as an elite RB prospect, and there is no reason to believe the Cowboys would have either, and therefore the odds are the Cowboys wouldn't have drafted him.

 

[KJJ]

Howard isn't even an issue anyway. You guys are discussing this as if the Cowboys had the choice of Elliott in the first, or Ramsey in the first and Howard in the 4th or 5th, and as if the Cowboys somehow would have known Howard would be as good as he has been.

I’m not the one who brought him up and he’s not half the talent Zeke is.

 

[KJJ]

Do you think the Dallas offense would fall to pieces if we had a back like, say, Kareem Hunt instead of Zeke? I dont think it'd miss much of a step, honestly.

Hunt wasn’t an option in 2016. He wasn’t expected to be as good as he’s been, we’ll just have to see if he’s consistent or this season was a fluke. He was a third round pick so it’s not like anyone knew he would be this good.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

First, I don't think any reasonable person really thinks Howard is as good a RB as Elliott, but granted he is a good one and would likely have done a good job for Dallas. But you can't just fabricate a scenario where you substitute Howard for Elliott, as if it is a given we would have had Howard had we passed on Zeke. There were 23 RBs that got drafted in 2016, 9 of whom went higher than Howard and 2 more that went within the next 6 picks after Howard. Nobody viewed him among the elite of that RB class. The odds are if the Cowboys had passed on Zeke would have ended up with another of the 21 RB's not named Elliott or Howard, just as every team that drafted a RB not name Howard or Elliott did.

The fallacy in your thinking is you are treating a first round pick as if the point is to take a player at a position where it is impossible to find any other player anywhere else in the draft who could possbly make an impact, and that 's wrong thinking, and would be whether you are talking about Elliott or Ramsey ... RB or CB. Both outstanding RBs and CBs are sometimes found in later rounds. The point of drafting highter is to increase the odds of getting that kind of player.

RB, more than any other position has shown you can get quality, productive backs (including leading rushers) from later rounds and even undrafted. The same cannot be said about CBs to the same extent.

 

[OmerV]

I’m not the one who brought him up and he’s not half the talent Zeke is.

I agree with you, but why even argue it as if Howard has a place in the discussion? Having hindsight knowledge that one RB out of the 22 other RBs besides Elliott that got drafted turned out well doesn't somehow mean Howard could have been factored into the decision between drafting Ramsey or Elliott.

 

[KJJ]

I agree with you, but why even argue it as if Howard has a place in the discussion?

Howard has no place in this discussion I didn’t bring him up. If someone brings another player up that doesn’t belong you’re going to make an argument as to why they don’t belong and I made mine.

 

[KJJ]

You literally are just grasping as straws now.

Anyone bringing up Jordan Howard is grasping for straws. He was a fifth round pick how the hell did anyone know he would be any good? Were you saying anything about drafting him instead of Zeke in 2016? I don’t think so!

 

[OmerV]

RB, more than any other position has shown you can get quality, productive backs (including leading rushers) from later rounds and even undrafted. The same cannot be said about CBs to the same extent.

Richard Sherman and Josh Norman were both 5th round draft picks, One of the Pro Bowl CBs this year was an undrafted free agent, another was a 2nd round pick and the CB with the most interceptions this year was a 3rd round pick. In 2016 a different undrafted free agent made the Pro Bowl. In 2015 yet a different undrafted free agent RB made the Pro Bowl, as did Norman and Sherman. In 2014 YET ANOTHER undrafted free agent CB made the Pro Bowl.

Are you getting the picture. Your argument applies to CBs too, and probably more so. How many undrafted free agent RBs ever have that kind of success?

 

[Sydla]

You’re the one grasping at straws because all you want to do is keep arguing all day. You’re the one who brought up Howard and I pointed out the Bears record with him and the fact their QBs still struggled. He started 13 games as a rookie and rushed for over 1300 yards but this season he started all 16 games, had 24 more carries and put up just over 1100 yards. He regressed!

Plus he’s not the receiver out of the backfield that Zeke is. Zeke's numbers were down because he missed six games due to a suspension where were you? Despite missing six games he was only 17 yards from having 1000 yard season. He scored 9 TDs in 10 games. Howard isn’t near the talent that Zeke is. You’re just wasting time.

But pointing out the Bears record with Howard is a dumb argument because the BEARS ARE AN INFERIORLY TALENTED TEAM compared to the Cowboys. Again, if you flip Howard and Elliott, the Bears suddenly don't turn into a much better team. But you seem to be trying to argue that point.

Howard has averaged 4.6 yards per carry in Chicago the last two years with a mediocre OL and a bad QB. Elliott has averaged 4.6 yards per carry on a team with a better OL and a QB, at least last year, that played very well. Are you really trying to argue that Howard couldn't match or even perform better than Elliott if given what Elliott had on his team?

Elliott averaged 5.1 ypc in 2016. 4.1 in 2017. So if you want to ding Howard, then it's foolish to not make the same claim for Elliott.

Frankly, I am not even really arguing that Howard is as good as Elliott. I just think the gap between the two isn't as big as you think and that this Cowboys team could absolutely win games with him as TB.

 

[OmerV]

Howard has no place in this discussion I didn’t bring him up. If someone brings another player up that doesn’t belong you’re going to make an argument as to why they don’t belong and I made mine.

You made an argument that he isn't as good as Zeke, but that's not what makes Howard a non-issue. Point being, that if the Cowboys had known they could get Howard, and they had known Howard was going to be the kind of player he is, even though Howard isn't as good as Zeke, the combination of getting Ramsey and Howard instead of Zeke would have been a real consideration. What makes that scenario fall apart isn't that Howard isn't as good as Zeke, its that you can't just plug Howard into that scenario as if it was actually a choice.