Zeke or Jalen Ramsey 2 years later

[Sydla]

I agree with you, but why even argue it as if Howard has a place in the discussion? Having hindsight knowledge that one RB out of the 22 other RBs besides Elliott that got drafted turned out well doesn't somehow mean Howard could have been factored into the decision between drafting Ramsey or Elliott.

Howard was brought up because KJJ asked someone to name a TB that could work here in Dallas.

IMO, Howard, while maybe not the pure talent Elliott is, could absolutely do very good things here in Dallas and Dallas could win games with Howard at TB. He's that good.

He's basically compiled similar stats playing for a Bears team that is one of the worst teams in the league.

 

[KJJ]

But pointing out the Bears record with Howard is a dumb argument because the BEARS ARE AN INFERIORLY TALENTED TEAM compared to the Cowboys. Again, if you flip Howard and Elliott, the Bears suddenly don't turn into a much better team. But you seem to be trying to argue that point.

Howard has averaged 4.6 yards per carry in Chicago the last two years with a mediocre OL and a bad QB. Elliott has averaged 4.6 yards per carry on a team with a better OL and a QB, at least last year, that played very well. Are you really trying to argue that Howard couldn't match or even perform better than Elliott if given what Elliott had on his team?

Elliott averaged 5.1 ypc in 2016. 4.1 in 2017. So if you want to ding Howard, then it's foolish to not make the same claim for Elliott.

Frankly, I am not even really arguing that Howard is as good as Elliott. I just think the gap between the two isn't as big as you think and that this Cowboys team could absolutely win games with him as TB.

Go dig up a post from the spring of 2016 clamoring for the Cowboys to pass on Zeke and draft Howard.

 

[Sydla]

Richard Sherman and Josh Norman were both 5th round draft picks, One of the Pro Bowl CBs this year was an undrafted free agent, another was a 2nd round pick and the CB with the most interceptions this year was a 3rd round pick. In 2016 a different undrafted free agent made the Pro Bowl. In 2015 yet a different undrafted free agent RB made the Pro Bowl, as did Norman and Sherman. In 2014 YET ANOTHER undrafted free agent CB made the Pro Bowl.

Are you getting the picture. Your argument applies to CBs too, and probably more so. How many undrafted free agent RBs ever have that kind of success?

Arien Foster was a Pro Bowler, All Pro and an undrafted FA running back.

Priest Holmes was a Pro Bowler, All Pro and an undrafted FA running back.

 

[KJJ]

You made an argument that he isn't as good as Zeke, but that's not what makes Howard a non-issue. Point being, that if the Cowboys had known they could get Howard, and they had known Howard was going to be the kind of player he is, even though Howard isn't as good as Zeke, the combination of getting Ramsey and Howard instead of Zeke would have been a real consideration. What makes that scenario fall apart isn't that Howard isn't as good as Zeke, its that you can't just plug Howard into that scenario as if it was actually a choice.

I made an argument that Howard isn’t as good as Zeke and it can’t be refuted.

 

[Sydla]

Go dig up a post from the spring of 2016 clamoring for the Cowboys to pass on Zeke and draft Howard.

Actually there were people talking about Howard as a mid round pick for the Cowboys in that draft.

So the notion that Howard was a complete unknown that no one talked about is false.

 

[OmerV]

Howard was brought up because KJJ asked someone to name a TB that could work here in Dallas.

IMO, Howard, while maybe not the pure talent Elliott is, could absolutely do very good things here in Dallas and Dallas could win games with Howard at TB. He's that good.

He's basically compiled similar stats playing for a Bears team that is one of the worst teams in the league.

I understand why you responded to him - he did make that comment about naming one player. But that doesn't somehow mean Howard actually has a place in the discussion of the choice between Ramsey and Elliott.

 

[KJJ]

Actually there were people talking about Howard as a mid round pick for the Cowboys in that draft.

So the notion that Howard was a complete unknown that no one talked about is false.

Don’t care what other people were saying show me where you were talking about it.

 

[DIAF]

Hunt wasn’t an option in 2016. He wasn’t expected to be as good as he’s been, we’ll just have to see if he’s consistent or this season was a fluke. He was a third round pick so it’s not like anyone knew he would be this good.

It was an EXAMPLE of the kind of backs you can get in the 2nd or 3rd. The point is, do you want Zeke or do you want an elite corner and a next tier down RB like a Kareem Hunt or someone like that? I know what my choice is

 

[OmerV]

I made an argument that Howard isn’t as good as Zeke and it can’t be refuted.

You did, and that's that. You are still arguing it in the context of the Cowboys choosing between Elliott and Ramsey, as if it matters.

 

[OmerV]

Arien Foster was a Pro Bowler, All Pro and an undrafted FA running back.

Priest Holmes was a Pro Bowler, All Pro and an undrafted FA running back.

Priest Holmes ... having to dig back quite a way. He's been retired 11 years. I named undrafted free agent CBs that made the Pro Bowl the last 4 straight years. In any case, you wouldn't have made a point anyway because I wasn't saying it doesn't ever happen with RB's, I was just pointing out that it happens with CBs too - a lot more than you realize.

I think the only reason people think it happens so much more with RBs is because RB's simply get more attention. People keep up with stats like rushing yards and TDs more than Passes Defended and INTs, and they notice the RB's much more when they watch games and read about them much more than CBs, and of course RBs get a lot more highlights on Sportscenter than do CBs. But that's all just perception, not necessarily reality.

 

[OmerV]

It was an EXAMPLE of the kind of backs you can get in the 2nd or 3rd. The point is, do you want Zeke or do you want an elite corner and a next tier down RB like a Kareem Hunt or someone like that? I know what my choice is

You may have missed my earlier post, but there are plenty of examples of getting outstanding CBs in later rounds too. Here is what I posted before ....

Richard Sherman and Josh Norman were both 5th round draft picks, One of the Pro Bowl CBs this year was an undrafted free agent, another was a 2nd round pick and the CB with the most interceptions this year was a 3rd round pick. In 2016 a different undrafted free agent made the Pro Bowl. In 2015 yet a different undrafted free agent CB made the Pro Bowl, as did Norman and Sherman. In 2014 YET ANOTHER undrafted free agent CB made the Pro Bowl.

 

[75boyz]

Purely absurd to say Ramsey over Zeke unless...Zeke totally flames out longer term.
Zeke is worth so many more points per game than Ramsey it's not funny.
Zeke changes (and wins) games. Ramsey slightly alters where opposing QBs throw the ball occasionally while playing on a top defense. Ask a Pitt fan is they'd rather have Bell or Richard Sherman at his best. It's a ridiculous question because their offense is nothing without Bell just like our offense stinks without Zeke. With Ramsey on our lame defense last season, does anyone really think we win 13 games and Morris running then ball? Sure it would be great to have a top corner, I get why people lament that but just beyond ridiculous to say that Ramsey would be as valuable to our team as Zeke is. Not sure how this is even debatable.

This. With even more emphasis. Nicely done.

 

[KJJ]

It was an EXAMPLE of the kind of backs you can get in the 2nd or 3rd. The point is, do you want Zeke or do you want an elite corner and a next tier down RB like a Kareem Hunt or someone like that? I know what my choice is

For the team we have I would rather have an elite back (game changer) than an elite corner. McFadden was a good back but it didn’t make us a good football team. Morris Is a good back but our offense isn’t anything special with him.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

Howard was brought up because KJJ asked someone to name a TB that could work here in Dallas.

IMO, Howard, while maybe not the pure talent Elliott is, could absolutely do very good things here in Dallas and Dallas could win games with Howard at TB. He's that good.

He's basically compiled similar stats playing for a Bears team that is one of the worst teams in the league.

The fact people ignore that Murray had a better peak season than Zeke did and he was a 3rd round pick astonishes me. You simply don't need to draft a RB high. Running the ball is a function first and foremost of the offensive line.

 

[KJJ]

You did, and that's that. You are still arguing it in the context of the Cowboys choosing between Elliott and Ramsey, as if it matters.

I’m arguing with a guy that wants to keep arguing. Try keeping up. I’m not the one who started this topic. If choosing between Elliott and Ramsey doesn’t matter then don’t contribute to the discussion.

 

[Nightman]

Don’t care what other people were saying show me where you were talking about it.

If you want elite you have to draft a RB early

20 of the top 25 RBs All time were drafted in the 1st...............9 in the Top5...... 16 in the Top 10
only 3 in the 2nd
only 2 in the 3rd

Exactly 0 after the 3rd

 

[KJJ]

If you want elite you have to draft a RB early

20 of the top 25 RBs All time were drafted in the 1st...............9 in the Top5...... 16 in the Top 10
only 3 in the 2nd
only 2 in the 3rd

Exactly 0 after the 3rd

You have to draft one early or get lucky later in the draft. If you have a huge need at RB and a great one is available take them. If RB isn’t a pressing need then take one later in the draft.

 

[jazzcat22]

Zeke and Fournette are special talents, along with Gurley but you can find RBs a LOT easier than you can find Corners like Ramsey.

We now have Awuzie that many had a first round grade on, or at least did at one time. From 20th on. And Lewis that if not for his issues of DV, for which he was cleared on. Had him as a 1st rounder also.

So let’s see how they improve after next season, or 2 and see where everyone is then.

 

[Sydla]

Priest Holmes ... having to dig back quite a way. He's been retired 11 years. I named undrafted free agent CBs that made the Pro Bowl the last 4 straight years. In any case, you wouldn't have made a point anyway because I wasn't saying it doesn't ever happen with RB's, I was just pointing out that it happens with CBs too - a lot more than you realize.

I think the only reason people think it happens so much more with RBs is because RB's simply get more attention. People keep up with stats like rushing yards and TDs more than Passes Defended and INTs, and they notice the RB's much more when they watch games and read about them much more than CBs, and of course RBs get a lot more highlights on Sportscenter than do CBs. But that's all just perception, not necessarily reality.

You basically asked for examples. I gave you two off the top of my head.

 

[Nightman]

You have to draft one early or get lucky later in the draft. If you have a huge need at RB and a great one is available take them. If RB isn’t a pressing need then take one later in the draft.

Lucky late in the draft really doesn't factor in either

The best RB drafted after the 3rd is Terry Allen all the way down at 39th