Zeke vs other top RBs

[Irvin88_4life]

Wentz made Sproles. He only has a high YPC because the defenses have to drop 9 in coverage and leave 2 to spy on Wentz.

I mean what has Sproles ever done before playing with Wentz........

Haha you can't be serious......Wentz averages less then 6 yards per attempt why would teams need to drop in coverage. This Wentz love is crazy

 

[LocimusPrime]

Here are the YPC stats for the top RBs for this season.
Zeke is listed as #6.
How would you rate/order these running backs in terms of their 'pure' running ability (not YPC) and why?

1 Ajayi, Jay MIA 6.4
2 McCoy, LeSean BUF 5.3
3 Washington, DeAndre OAK 5.1
4 Howard, Jordan CHI 5.1
5 Lacy, Eddie GB 5.1
6 Elliott, Ezekiel DAL 5.0
7 Ware, Spencer KC 5.0
8 Bell, Le'Veon PIT 5.0
9 Sproles, Darren PHI 5.0
10 Hill, Jeremy CIN 5.0

Good post, thanks for sharing bro

 

[dallasdave]

Good post, thanks for sharing bro

sharing is caring

 

[darthseinfeld]

Haha you can't be serious......Wentz averages less then 6 yards per attempt why would teams need to drop in coverage. This Wentz love is crazy

Totes serious. Total super cereal.

Wentz only averages 6 yard per attempt because he is throwing with his left hand to make it fair for the rest of the league.

 

[JohnsKey19]

Here are the YPC stats for the top RBs for this season.
Zeke is listed as #6.
How would you rate/order these running backs in terms of their 'pure' running ability (not YPC) and why?

1 Ajayi, Jay MIA 6.4
2 McCoy, LeSean BUF 5.3
3 Washington, DeAndre OAK 5.1
4 Howard, Jordan CHI 5.1
5 Lacy, Eddie GB 5.1
6 Elliott, Ezekiel DAL 5.0
7 Ware, Spencer KC 5.0
8 Bell, Le'Veon PIT 5.0
9 Sproles, Darren PHI 5.0
10 Hill, Jeremy CIN 5.0

1. Elliot
2. Bell
3. McCoy

These 3 are IMO the most talented runners of the bunch. In a vacuum, give me either of these guys in the listed order above to carry the rock for my team.

 

[Nightman]

1. Elliot
2. Bell
3. McCoy

These 3 are IMO the most talented runners of the bunch. In a vacuum, give me either of these guys in the listed order above to carry the rock for my team.

I think David Johnson has to be in that group

 

[waldoputty]

Yes, I do not believe running ability varies quarter to quarter.

To me, running ability for a RB is defined by qualities like what I mentioned above such as:
1. breakaway speed - measurable
2. wiggle - mostly measurable
3. vision - mostly measurable but who is going to let you
4. toughness - hard to measure
5. ability to flatten the defender - somewhat measurable in terms of weight, weight distribution
6. decision making - hard to measure. this does improve at the beginning of a career while learning to play at NFL speed
7. probably left out a couple
8. Injuries can obviously change a RB's ability

Running ability with a team needs to include other things like OL's ability to block, QB/WR/OL ability to pass to make the defense less focused on the run. These also don't vary quarter to quarter except in the case of change in personnel and injuries.

A few other things from the other thread:

1) I mentioned this EXTREME example to make an illustrative case in the other thread of how I view rushing efficiency being used in a regression.
Goal: Evaluate whether water is important for grass to grow
Measurables: water (what you vary), grass growth
Not measuring: whether the grass is exposed to sunlight (e.g. 50% of grass kept in dark box, 50% is kept outside exposed to sun light during the day) - obviously this is the extreme analogy for defensive formation etc.
Regression result - no correlation
Mistaken analysis - water does not affect grass growth
Correct analysis - not sure if water affects grass growth because whether there is sunlight introduces a huge error in the statistical exercise

2) I made a 'defender density' argument that compares the ability to stop the run using 8-in-a-box vs. stopping the run with 8DBs. The density of defenders in the box is much higher (can be up to 10X) than defenders covering WRs running all over the field. Same reason why it is tougher to pass in the red zone.

3) I do not remember the more complex statistical models that well from many years ago, but googling did find the "errors in variable" model that accounts for errors in the independent variables. I do recall this is a complex regression subject from a graduate econometrics class. This equates things like 8-in-a-box as errors in the model. Without trying to get through all the complex theory, if the error is substantial, then the results are unpredictable, particularly for nonlinear complex models.

as an addendum to my reply, if you are referring players getting tired, then yes, there could be a quarter-to-quarter variation. Though that is not really measureable, particularly as basically all regular players get tired (not just the RB) as the game progresses, as well as getting dinged. In terms of things like player adjustments, I dont really view that as a change in his ability, as everything is being adjusted during the game, including strategy by both sets of coaches etc.

 

[dallasdave]

as an addendum to my reply, if you are referring players getting tired, then yes, there could be a quarter-to-quarter variation. Though that is not really measureable, particularly as basically all regular players get tired (not just the RB) as the game progresses, as well as getting dinged. In terms of things like player adjustments, I dont really view that as a change in his ability, as everything is being adjusted during the game, including strategy by both sets of coaches etc.

WIN

 

[JohnsKey19]

I think David Johnson has to be in that group

Johnson wasn't in the OP's list of 10 to pick from.

 

[waldoputty]

Johnson wasn't in the OP's list of 10 to pick from.

I just took the top 10 players in terms of YPC.
I agree though that just because YPC is the best does not mean those are the best players due to difference in the talent around them etc.
I dont watch anyone else besides Cowboys so I dont know who to put down
If the Cowboys no longer exist, I probably would not watch more than 1-2 games per year.

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

I just took the top 10 players in terms of YPC.
I agree though that just because YPC is the best does not mean those are the best players due to difference in the talent around them etc.
I dont watch anyone else besides Cowboys so I dont know who to put down
If the Cowboys no longer exist, I probably would not watch more than 1-2 games per year.

So you're really not much of a football I take it.

 

[waldoputty]

Good question.

YPC does not mean much to me. YPC is boosted by long runs which are great, but the primary job of the RB in terms of rushing is much more about situational performance than total yardage or ypc.

The ypc numbers also don't mean much because short yardage situations decrease ypc. You could have the greatest short yardage RB ever, and his ypc would be low.

Some type of Success Rate definition would be better than ypc.

The following could be the stats for 2 RBs on 1st-and-10. The one with the lower average is likely to be better.

RB1 ypc = 7 (80, -1, -1, -1, -1, -1, -1, -1, -1, -2)

RB2 ypc = 4 (4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4)

RB2 consistently keeps his offense in a good down and distance for 2nd down while RB1 keeps his offense in a bad position except for 1 time.

The top scoring offenses generally have about 400 total yards with about 300 passing and 100 rushing. A 20% improvement in rushing yards would be 20 extra yards while a 20% improvement in passing yards would be 60 extra yards; therefore, the focus of rushing should be on converting 1st downs and scoring on short yardage while passing is more focused on racking up yards. Rushing will also help passing by forcing pass rushers to defend the run, forcing defenses to limit snaps for smallish pass rushers in favor of run defenders and playing a Safety in the box instead of in pass coverage. Rushing also helps with intangible issues like wearing down the defense physically and emotionally.

Having said all of that, it becomes too complicated (for fans) to define define it statistically; therefore, we just have to go by watching the games to rate the RBs.
1. EE
2. Bell

I forgot to respond to this one.
I like what you suggested.
Also think stat should incorporate # of tackles broken, yards after 1st contact, yards after 2nd contact ...
Also I suggested putting physical stats like 40 time, cone, shuttle etc.
And of course something that tracks # of times going to the right hole and the wrong hole
It is possible keeps stats like these
Though a stat that combines all these would be vastly complex.

 

[BAT]

Im shocked that many backs are over 5 YPC

Not me, not in this day and age of no practice in pads. Even the pros don't know how to tackle anymore. And I would rank the RBs in this order:

1. EZE
2. Zeke
3. EE
4. Got to Eat Elliott
5. The Hurdler

There is no better RB for this team than Ezekiel Elliott. There may be faster, stronger, bigger or more pedigreed backs but the chemistry with Zeke and his team mates is critical to the Cowboys success, his intangibles are off the charts just like Dak. Never mind his all purpose high level ability to run, catch, block and kill spirits of opposing teams.

 

[btcutter]

Here are the YPC stats for the top RBs for this season.
Zeke is listed as #6.
How would you rate/order these running backs in terms of their 'pure' running ability (not YPC) and why?

1 Ajayi, Jay MIA 6.4
2 McCoy, LeSean BUF 5.3
3 Washington, DeAndre OAK 5.1
4 Howard, Jordan CHI 5.1
5 Lacy, Eddie GB 5.1
6 Elliott, Ezekiel DAL 5.0
7 Ware, Spencer KC 5.0
8 Bell, Le'Veon PIT 5.0
9 Sproles, Darren PHI 5.0
10 Hill, Jeremy CIN 5.0

Why is this even a question? Is there another back you would take over Zeke now? Seriously!

 

[stilltheguru88]

Not me, not in this day and age of no practice in pads. Even the pros don't know how to tackle anymore. And I would rank the RBs in this order:

1. EZE
2. Zeke
3. EE
4. Got to Eat Elliott
5. The Hurdler

There is no better RB for this team than Ezekiel Elliott. There may be faster, stronger, bigger or more pedigreed backs but the chemistry with Zeke and his team mates is critical to the Cowboys success, his intangibles are off the charts just like Dak. Never mind his all purpose high level ability to run, catch, block and kill spirits of opposing teams.

Pedigree? Nah. His daddy was a baller and his mama was an athlete. He's built for this

 

[Texas_Pete]

Sturm - Zeke vs DM29:

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Pure running ability I would go EE and Bell #1 and #2. Ajayi is awesome, but I wonder how long will he be able to run that way. He's like those William Andrews types. They are phenomenal for about 4-5 years and then fall off the earth.




YR

 

[Nightman]

Sturm - Zeke vs DM29:

Been trying to tell everyone how good Murray was since 2014....Zeke is gonna get even better with experience though

 

[bayeslife]

Good question.

YPC does not mean much to me. YPC is boosted by long runs which are great, but the primary job of the RB in terms of rushing is much more about situational performance than total yardage or ypc.

The ypc numbers also don't mean much because short yardage situations decrease ypc. You could have the greatest short yardage RB ever, and his ypc would be low.

Some type of Success Rate definition would be better than ypc.

The following could be the stats for 2 RBs on 1st-and-10. The one with the lower average is likely to be better.

RB1 ypc = 7 (80, -1, -1, -1, -1, -1, -1, -1, -1, -2)

RB2 ypc = 4 (4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4)

RB2 consistently keeps his offense in a good down and distance for 2nd down while RB1 keeps his offense in a bad position except for 1 time.

The top scoring offenses generally have about 400 total yards with about 300 passing and 100 rushing. A 20% improvement in rushing yards would be 20 extra yards while a 20% improvement in passing yards would be 60 extra yards; therefore, the focus of rushing should be on converting 1st downs and scoring on short yardage while passing is more focused on racking up yards. Rushing will also help passing by forcing pass rushers to defend the run, forcing defenses to limit snaps for smallish pass rushers in favor of run defenders and playing a Safety in the box instead of in pass coverage. Rushing also helps with intangible issues like wearing down the defense physically and emotionally.

Having said all of that, it becomes too complicated (for fans) to define define it statistically; therefore, we just have to go by watching the games to rate the RBs.
1. EE
2. Bell

The argument against YPC is flawed. I get that the numbers look that way to make a point but the variance of runs in practice is never that extreme. Running backs that can maintain that good a YPC over a large sample size of 200+ runs typically are good players. Murray started his career playing behind a bad offensive line but had always maintained a 4+ YPC

 

[waldoputty]

Why is this even a question? Is there another back you would take over Zeke now? Seriously!

i would not, but i dont watch anyone else but cowboys