Hurst, Vea or Payne?

[stilltheguru88]

Payne's a very high floor, very high ceiling player. His ceiling is Sapp. Similar size, build, and athletic ability.

He is by far the safest of the three. Vea is very raw and Hurst needs to add size and strength. Payne is more pro ready than either.

What I like about him is he can play both DT positions. He anchors and disengages double teams meaning he can man the nose. He has the quickness and hands to get penetration meaning he can play the 3.

Factssssssssssss!

 

[DanA]

Payne's a very high floor, very high ceiling player. His ceiling is Sapp. Similar size, build, and athletic ability.

He is by far the safest of the three. Vea is very raw and Hurst needs to add size and strength. Payne is more pro ready than either.

What I like about him is he can play both DT positions. He anchors and disengages double teams meaning he can man the nose. He has the quickness and hands to get penetration meaning he can play the 3.

I don't quite get how you can project Payne as a regular double-digit sack guy when he's had three total over three years playing for Alabama. If he can't get home with teammates like Jonathan Allen, Ryan Anderson, Tim Williams and Dalvin Tomlinson against College guys what makes you think he'll suddenly flip a switch and become super productive like Sapp in the NFL. And it's not like Alabama always played good teams like Clemson and Georgia this season. They actually had a pretty weak schedule.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Payne's a very high floor, very high ceiling player. His ceiling is Sapp. Similar size, build, and athletic ability.

He is by far the safest of the three. Vea is very raw and Hurst needs to add size and strength. Payne is more pro ready than either.

What I like about him is he can play both DT positions. He anchors and disengages double teams meaning he can man the nose. He has the quickness and hands to get penetration meaning he can play the 3.

I don't believe that Payne has the initial quickness, off the snap, that Sapp did but yeah, I can see the resemblance there. I don't think that any of these guys are bad options. I think Vea has the most upside and the highest ceiling but I don't know if he is a fit for the scheme.

I think that a lot of it may have to do with what the team thinks about Collins. Is he a 3Tech or is he a 1Tech. That may well drive the thought process, assuming DT is what the team is looking at.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I don't quite get how you can project Payne as a regular double-digit sack guy when he's had three total over three years playing for Alabama. If he can't get home with teammates like Jonathan Allen, Ryan Anderson, Tim Williams and Dalvin Tomlinson against College guys what makes you think he'll suddenly flip a switch and become super productive like Sapp in the NFL. And it's not like Alabama always played good teams like Clemson and Georgia this season. They actually had a pretty weak schedule.

Sapp played 3T at Miami lined up outside the guards shoulder in the B gap. Payne played NT at AL lined up right over the OC or in the A gap. I'm not sure how you get to Allen who played DE, et al helping free him up. That is not how the front works. He 2 gapped alone in the middle mroe often than not.

There is no question at all that Payne can be an outstanding NT holding up against constant double teams and getting penetration. The question is how how he would perform isoed outside the guard as a 3T.

I find it quite easy to compare the two physically. They look the same in pads with their low cut 6'2" 310 lbs frames. I am higher on Payne's quickness then you guys are but we will see how he shuttles and jumps here is a few. All told I think his size, cut, natural bend, quickness, and strength lend to an extremely high upside.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I don't believe that Payne has the initial quickness, off the snap, that Sapp did but yeah, I can see the resemblance there. I don't think that any of these guys are bad options. I think Vea has the most upside and the highest ceiling but I don't know if he is a fit for the scheme.

I think that a lot of it may have to do with what the team thinks about Collins. Is he a 3Tech or is he a 1Tech. That may well drive the thought process, assuming DT is what the team is looking at.

Marinelli likes to flip the line. Collins can play both. He was serviceable at the 1 with a bad foot. Adding Payne to the mix with big DE on both sides and it becomes real easy to overload blocking schemes and not leave the other end hug out to dry with those 1 gap shifts we see all the time.

Irvin Payne Collins DLaw is a dynamic base front that can align either way.

 

[Sydla]

It comes down to talent and raw skill for me.

I think Payne has that more than the other two. And note, I wouldn't mind Vea at all. But if we are going with a defensive lineman, Payne is my guy (unless Bradley Chubb facebooks a picture of him smoking a bong the night before the draft and he falls to us at 19).

 

[DanA]

Sapp played 3T at Miami lined up outside the guards shoulder in the B gap. Payne played NT at AL lined up right over the OC or in the A gap. I'm not sure how you get to Allen who played DE, et al helping free him up. That is not how the front works. He 2 gapped alone in the middle mroe often than not.

There is no question at all that Payne can be an outstanding NT holding up against constant double teams and getting penetration. The question is how how he would perform isoed outside the guard as a 3T.

I find it quite easy to compare the two physically. They look the same in pads with their low cut 6'2" 310 lbs frames. I am higher on Payne's quickness then you guys are but we will see how he shuttles and jumps here is a few. All told I think his size, cut, natural bend, quickness, and strength lend to an extremely high upside.

1. Allen didn't just play DE, he also played inside quite a bit, especially in his final year.
2. Tomlinson was the NT last year. Payne played some 3T but still didn't get good numbers playing "3T isoed outside the guard"
3. Sapp was about 280lbs coming out of college, Payne was 350lbs in high school dropping down to a lean 310lbs. But there's still about 30lbs difference.
4. What does natural bend have to do with an interior lineman? Are you projecting him as an edge rusher.

He's young and ridiculously powerful and has a lot of talent. I agree he's got a good variety of moves and Alabama use a lot of stunts etc that would suit us but IMO he's more Jonathan Hankins than Sapp. Maybe he can push back up in weight and his ceiling could become Damon Harrison because he has that sort of intelligence, but I guarantee you he will not be a consistent double-digit sack guy like Warren Sapp. It's not the way he plays, they are nothing alike.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

1. Allen didn't just play DE, he also played inside quite a bit, especially in his final year.
2. Tomlinson was the NT last year. Payne played some 3T but still didn't get good numbers playing "3T isoed outside the guard"
3. Sapp was about 280lbs coming out of college, Payne was 350lbs in high school dropping down to a lean 310lbs. But there's still about 30lbs difference.
4. What does natural bend have to do with an interior lineman? Are you projecting him as an edge rusher.

He's young and ridiculously powerful and has a lot of talent. I agree he's got a good variety of moves and Alabama use a lot of stunts etc that would suit us but IMO he's more Jonathan Hankins than Sapp. Maybe he can push back up in weight and his ceiling could become Damon Harrison because he has that sort of intelligence, but I guarantee you he will not be a consistent double-digit sack guy like Warren Sapp. It's not the way he plays, they are nothing alike.

Sapp's playing weight was 310 in the NFL. Miami played a 4-3 penetrating front in 1995.

AL plays a 3-4 base. They don't have a 3T in the base and they 2 gap. The DE line up straight over the OG and OT. Payne did not play the 3 in the nickel. I just watched the Miss St and Clemson games from 2016.

When I say ben I mean he keeps his pad level low naturally because of his low cut build. He is able to do so and maintain power and balance. I think you are confusing lean and bend. A DE leans into the rush to get around the corner. I did not say bend the corner and I am not sure how that would be natural anyway.

 

[stilltheguru88]

1. Allen didn't just play DE, he also played inside quite a bit, especially in his final year.
2. Tomlinson was the NT last year. Payne played some 3T but still didn't get good numbers playing "3T isoed outside the guard"
3. Sapp was about 280lbs coming out of college, Payne was 350lbs in high school dropping down to a lean 310lbs. But there's still about 30lbs difference.
4. What does natural bend have to do with an interior lineman? Are you projecting him as an edge rusher.

He's young and ridiculously powerful and has a lot of talent. I agree he's got a good variety of moves and Alabama use a lot of stunts etc that would suit us but IMO he's more Jonathan Hankins than Sapp. Maybe he can push back up in weight and his ceiling could become Damon Harrison because he has that sort of intelligence, but I guarantee you he will not be a consistent double-digit sack guy like Warren Sapp. It's not the way he plays, they are nothing alike.

They don’t play alike because the schemes were different. Look closer

 

[stilltheguru88]

Sapp's playing weight was 310 in the NFL. Miami played a 4-3 penetrating front in 1995.

AL plays a 3-4 base. They don't have a 3T in the base and they 2 gap. The DE line up straight over the OG and OT. Payne did not play the 3 in the nickel. I just watched the Miss St and Clemson games from 2016.

When I say ben I mean he keeps his pad level low naturally because of his low cut build. He is able to do so and maintain power and balance. I think you are confusing lean and bend. A DE leans into the rush to get around the corner. I did not say bend the corner and I am not sure how that would be natural anyway.

Exactly. You don’t look like Sapp playing a 2 gap scheme.

 

[speedkilz88]

Sapp's playing weight was 310 in the NFL. Miami played a 4-3 penetrating front in 1995.

AL plays a 3-4 base. They don't have a 3T in the base and they 2 gap. The DE line up straight over the OG and OT. Payne did not play the 3 in the nickel. I just watched the Miss St and Clemson games from 2016.

When I say ben I mean he keeps his pad level low naturally because of his low cut build. He is able to do so and maintain power and balance. I think you are confusing lean and bend. A DE leans into the rush to get around the corner. I did not say bend the corner and I am not sure how that would be natural anyway.

Sapp played a lot lighter than that with Tampa, his weight ballooned when he went to the Raiders playing in a 3-4.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Sapp played a lot lighter than that with Tampa, his weight ballooned when he went to the Raiders playing in a 3-4.

I've seen him listed at 300 lbs. They still look the same in pads. If anything Sapp looks flabbier.

 

[kiheikiwi]

Marinelli likes to flip the line. Collins can play both. He was serviceable at the 1 with a bad foot. Adding Payne to the mix with big DE on both sides and it becomes real easy to overload blocking schemes and not leave the other end hug out to dry with those 1 gap shifts we see all the time.

Irvin Payne Collins DLaw is a dynamic base front that can align either way.

You are preaching, and I am the choir !

 

[DanA]

They don’t play alike because the schemes were different. Look closer

I'm aware that Alabama runs a base 2 gap 3-4. But as with the Patriots, it's a hybrid system that gives a variety of looks. I'll repeat what I said, Allen played quite a bit inside and Payne some 3T too alongside Tomlinson shading the guards outside shoulder. It wasn't their base defense but we saw enough of it to see that Payne wasn't really productive in the same way that Sapp was as a 3T. And Alabama in 06 had four top 100 drafted linemen so without going back and looking at the specifics, I'm sure Payne saw plenty of time isolated one on one because he was not the biggest threat.

He's a big powerful dude with wicked hands but nothing like Sapp. Sapp allegedly ran a 4.69 forty..... let's see if Payne gets anywhere near that.

 

[kiheikiwi]

1. Allen didn't just play DE, he also played inside quite a bit, especially in his final year.
2. Tomlinson was the NT last year. Payne played some 3T but still didn't get good numbers playing "3T isoed outside the guard"
3. Sapp was about 280lbs coming out of college, Payne was 350lbs in high school dropping down to a lean 310lbs. But there's still about 30lbs difference.
4. What does natural bend have to do with an interior lineman? Are you projecting him as an edge rusher.

He's young and ridiculously powerful and has a lot of talent. I agree he's got a good variety of moves and Alabama use a lot of stunts etc that would suit us but IMO he's more Jonathan Hankins than Sapp. Maybe he can push back up in weight and his ceiling could become Damon Harrison because he has that sort of intelligence, but I guarantee you he will not be a consistent double-digit sack guy like Warren Sapp. It's not the way he plays, they are nothing alike.

Ummmm, we would be drafting him to play the 1-tech, Collins would be the 3-tech. Im my mind, Payne is not, and would not be asked to be a double digit sack guy. Hes a monster in the middle who frees up everyone else, keeps the guards off our linebackers, and can occasionaly get to the QB.
He does/would do everything you want a good 1-tech to do. Dont care about him getting double digit sacks.

 

[stilltheguru88]

I'm aware that Alabama runs a base 2 gap 3-4. But as with the Patriots, it's a hybrid system that gives a variety of looks. I'll repeat what I said, Allen played quite a bit inside and Payne some 3T too alongside Tomlinson shading the guards outside shoulder. It wasn't their base defense but we saw enough of it to see that Payne wasn't really productive in the same way that Sapp was as a 3T. And Alabama in 06 had four top 100 drafted linemen so without going back and looking at the specifics, I'm sure Payne saw plenty of time isolated one on one because he was not the biggest threat.

He's a big powerful dude with wicked hands but nothing like Sapp. Sapp allegedly ran a 4.69 forty..... let's see if Payne gets anywhere near that.

That 40 time doesn’t mean much to me for a DT

 

[DanA]

Payne's a very high floor, very high ceiling player. His ceiling is Sapp. Similar size, build, and athletic ability.

He is by far the safest of the three. Vea is very raw and Hurst needs to add size and strength. Payne is more pro ready than either.

What I like about him is he can play both DT positions. He anchors and disengages double teams meaning he can man the nose. He has the quickness and hands to get penetration meaning he can play the 3.

Payne's a very high floor, very high ceiling player. His ceiling is Sapp. Similar size, build, and athletic ability.

He is by far the safest of the three. Vea is very raw and Hurst needs to add size and strength. Payne is more pro ready than either.

What I like about him is he can play both DT positions. He anchors and disengages double teams meaning he can man the nose. He has the quickness and hands to get penetration meaning he can play the 3.

Ummmm, we would be drafting him to play the 1-tech, Collins would be the 3-tech. Im my mind, Payne is not, and would not be asked to be a double digit sack guy. Hes a monster in the middle who frees up everyone else, keeps the guards off our linebackers, and can occasionaly get to the QB.
He does/would do everything you want a good 1-tech to do. Dont care about him getting double digit sacks.

You need to read the whole conversation to understand what/why I was arguing.

- Yes, I think Payne is a good 1 Tech and good fit for Dallas.
- No, I don't think he's a productive 3T like Sapp, nor does he play like him in my view.
- I would happily trade down in the 1st to get him or up in the 2nd.

The last IMO is really the only contentious point. I think he's good value anywhere in the 25-40 range because that's where what I view as similar sorts of talents have gone. Guys like Kenny Clarke, A'shawn Robinson, Chris Jones and Vernon Butler all went around there and while I rate Payne actually a little better it's not so much that I think he should go at pick 19. At pick 19 or earlier, I think you have to have a bit more pass rushing ability like Donald or Sheldon Rankins.

 

[DanA]

That 40 time doesn’t mean much to me for a DT

As meaningless as the 40 time may be for a DT. If you've got one running 4.69 and another running 5.00+ then they're not similar.

 

[beware_d-ware]

When I say ben I mean he keeps his pad level low naturally because of his low cut build. He is able to do so and maintain power and balance. I think you are confusing lean and bend. A DE leans into the rush to get around the corner. I did not say bend the corner and I am not sure how that would be natural anyway.

Then that's called pad level, not bend.

To me, it sounds like you're throwing scouting cliches at the wall without any real understanding of what they mean, and then trying to BS your way out of it. Inb4 some rage filled 5 paragraph response, it doesn't change my point

 

[cnuball21]

You need to read the whole conversation to understand what/why I was arguing.

- Yes, I think Payne is a good 1 Tech and good fit for Dallas.
- No, I don't think he's a productive 3T like Sapp, nor does he play like him in my view.
- I would happily trade down in the 1st to get him or up in the 2nd.

The last IMO is really the only contentious point. I think he's good value anywhere in the 25-40 range because that's where what I view as similar sorts of talents have gone. Guys like Kenny Clarke, A'shawn Robinson, Chris Jones and Vernon Butler all went around there and while I rate Payne actually a little better it's not so much that I think he should go at pick 19. At pick 19 or earlier, I think you have to have a bit more pass rushing ability like Donald or Sheldon Rankins.

I'm not sure Payne is a better talent then Robinson or Reed who were both 2nd rounders - granted I thought they both should've gone earlier.

I agree with the 25-40 range.

I want a top 20 selection making more plays.