A look back, Garrett may not be so bad afterall

JustChip

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It was a blown opportunity. We were at home against a team we had already beat that year. That's how I look at it.

Garrett has lowered the bar so much that making the playoffs is something we should celebrate.

He needs to do something in the playoffs. He's had more then enough time.

I'm not arguing your overall thesis is wrong, just that in my opinion, and channeling Gene Kranz, that was actually our finest hour given the circumstances. Really very similar to 1975 and the Dirty Dozen. Yes, that team went to the SB (and lost), but that wouldn't have been the case had it not been for a miracle Hail Mary pass (which bitter Vikings fans still think was OPI).
 

Kaiser

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It's possible because obviously, any HC had a good shot at it but the better question is, could Jimmy have taken our team, this year, and won a championship with them?

I think the team would have a better chance with Jimmy than with Garrett, sure. But I also think Jimmy would have burned out and left before that season, which was his track record.

Jimmy is more like the dominant fastball pitcher in baseball while Garrett has a good mix of slighly above average pitches. The Fastball guy is better, but usually for a shorter career.
 

TheDude

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those teams had superior elite defenses and smart coaching to make it al come together, as much as JG gets reamed and for some viald reasons, the playoff losses all of them are on the defense or lack there of including the rams game..not his offense not even really dak or scott, the defense failed Romo many times and now Dak gets taste.. the defense and defensive coaching needs to be held accountable for their part in the playoff losses.. just like KC will forever look back at them not stopping Brady and company in the OT and simply want rule changes to help..not they didnt play much defense at all, all game, in the first half they didnt paly well at all..if it weren't for having ridiculous players on offense that found way to claw back with chunk plays they wouldn't have even made it close.. Aaron rogers burned us down 2 years in row and the offense nearly got us a win hadn't been for the Refs etc..see the Saintz this year..it happens..but the Rams Rbs just ran us over like we weren't there and we lost by 8..cant put that on Dak or garett and I hope Marinelli Retires and full rein is given to KrisR and maybe he starts seeing need for big uglys in the middle of the line to help on days where the run stoppers are needed..yes the defense helped us in the RS but the last 3 playoff trips al on the defense..

Best hope Dak improves some , we dont start 3-5 , and whomever is calling plays this season coming gives us better flow on both sides of the ball..when your players play their worset game in the moments when needed most, its hard to blame coaching but if anyone is to blame its Marinelli for the Rams loss..

https://cowboyszone.com/threads/sean-mcvay-is-what-we-wanted-jg-to-be.427625/page-5 see post 82

If you can score over 30 points with regularity, you will win more than not. It just fascinates me that everyone thinks the defense would never give up 30 points and that the offense would have to play a shootout game. It is almost like some, not saying you, could even comprehend that some teams have talent and scheme and can score. Couple that with 22 points being the peg to say "get too 22 in the playoffs and its game over" Since Dallas last won a SB, winning teams have scored more than 28 points in 14 of 22 contests or around 70%. 5 of the last 6 have needed 28 or more.

THe league is geared to scoring, PI, Rough passer, helmet to helmet, defenseless player, etc. You have to tailor to the rules
 

TheDude

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I think the team would have a better chance with Jimmy than with Garrett, sure. But I also think Jimmy would have burned out and left before that season, which was his track record.

Jimmy is more like the dominant fastball pitcher in baseball while Garrett has a good mix of slighly above average pitches. The Fastball guy is better, but usually for a shorter career.
Bad analogy, Nolan Ryan, big unit and Clemens, Rivera all played well into 40s. Most curveball pitchers have the arm issues
 

Kaiser

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Bad analogy, Nolan Ryan, big unit and Clemens, Rivera all played well into 40s. Most curveball pitchers have the arm issues

Oh look, the king of quote the exception and not the rule shows up right on time.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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That's part of the breaks I mentioned. I still believe that even if the Dez Catch is ruled correctly, Aaron Rodgers would have won the game with another of his patented comebacks.

But its not a lock, the odds are probably something like 50/50. And if he doesn't, Garrett could easily have won a SB ring that year.

I don't believe that. You never know what happens if the Cowboys go ahead right there. At the very least, GB has less time. I mean, for all we know, the Cowboys score, they go for two an GB has to score a TD to tie. You never know there.
 

Verdict

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A look back at Garrett’s record with us. Is he really that bad or that good.

Circumstances play a lot into it, beyond a coaches control.
I am not sure what I am trying to say with this, just looking at is from a different perspective than I have over the past year or so. Not meant to be negative or positive. But seems more positive though.

He took over for Wade after a 1-7 start in 2010. He led the team to a 5-3 record. Then took over in 2011 as his first full season.
But before that, when he came in for the 2007 season, the team was 13-3, 9-7, 11-5, as they won the NFCE twice, and the offense was pretty good. But yet many still knocked the offense. These are Garrett led offenses.
So in his first full offseason, he started dumping the over paid, aging under performing players. Especially the OL. Strapped in salary cap hell, the rebuild started. And it was going to take time.

And don’t forget the defenses and switching from 4-3 to 3-4, had to hire Wade, to keep the 3-4 going, then spawn of Buddy Ryan, then back to the 4-3, that set this team back 12 years. I think they are just now recovering from all of that. While trying to fix it all and plus keep the team competitive.

So he goes 3 straight 8-8, win and in games and lost 3 times. With still a roster devoid of talent. Romo in the 1st 2 years of those 8-8 seasons, threw late game picks and cost us those games. People want to blame Jason, well, look at Tony as well. That 3rd season, Tony brought us back with his injured back to beat Washington, with some late game last play TD. However, it was Kyle Orton that threw that game ending pick, at home to the Eagles to knock us out that year.

Yes win other games where there were screw ups then that last game may not matter. And I do not believe the “ice your own K” game was on Garrett for that particular moment. Maybe other decisions, too far back to remember, or care.

Then all healthy, the 12-4 season, that we were robbed in GB. Yes some coaching gaffes in that game if one wants to be critical. But Garrett didn’t tell Murray to be loose with the ball that would have been a TD. Therefore those other decisions may not have to been in play. Like to me, go for the first down, not throw to Dez. That was a messed up call. Bt many teams do this, not just Garrett / Linehan.

Then the injury plagued 2015 season. Not on Garrett at all. No Tony, No Lee a good part of the time. Injuries on the D as well. Was that the year they used like 18 different DL. Or maybe it was 2013.
2016, another Tony injury. Did anyone truly think from that point on, this team was going to do anything at all, if Tony did come back. He was always a hit away from missing time.

So enter Dak and Zeke. And a magical season. That ended in a heartbreaking loss. A game that the D let us down yet again, as Dak brought us back and went toe to toe with a GOAT candidate. Again GB got help from the refs. But also there were some dumb play calls, a few decisions that we questioned. Like that stupid bubble screen that GB was waiting on and intercepted, negating a possible TD. But in hindsight, crap happens to many teams.

2017, robbed by the NFL with the Zeke situation. Not Garrett’s fault, however this was where I lost it for Garrett. I still think they had some chances to win 2 games, but decisions blew it. I think this staff had many blown decisions that may have made a difference otherwise, even just to win one more game. But then again injuries to Lee and Smith did not help t all. Especially in that Atlanta game.

Now there were some very questionable choices in quite a few games during this 8-8 season, could have been 9-7 and in. Even in 2017 season, same thing, make the right call, maybe we are 10-6 and in. However, no one can say if the right call was made, we would have won. The other team gets paid to go and score again.

So to 2018, 3-5, Garrett talks to the team, Cooper comes in, and they finish 10-6, and 1-1 in the playoffs. And more seems to be on Linehan than Garrett. As it seems in those last 8 games and 2 playoff games, Garrett made many correct calls. None that cost us a loss.

However a few early games he had a few questionable calls, like in the Houston game, but were they really all that questionable. That can be debated, and no one would be right or wrong. Well in their own opinions anyway.
He wins the NFCE 3 of 5 years, and one year injuries galore, and one year we were cheated by the NFL.
Garrett finished last in the division one year, 2015, we know why. He finished 1st three times, 3rd twice, his first 2 years, and 2nd twice.
Made the playoff 3 times, and on the verge, one game away from the playoffs 4 other times. Could have made the playoffs every season but one. Yes I know, could have but didn’t.

Now many of you will look at it, and say, well this coach or that coach, and that is fine. I understand that. I am right here also. One can say, salary cap, we were worse off than those other teams. Everyone will have their reasons as to why or why not.
But if one looks back and see how he was limited to get better players, cap issues, old players, injured QB almost every year at some point.

But if you look at the past 4 years only, since they have been drafting better, cap issues resolved after all the dead money coming off the books now. And see what direction they are going. Maybe it is not so much Garrett. But we do know it is Linehan for sure being an issue. Garrett seems to be taking the role as Jimmy did. Let the coaches coach, and he will oversee it all. However, I feel he needed to intervene more often and override some of those decisions. Maybe he did or did not, we do not know how all that sideline stuff goes down. We can only speculate. There will be fans that will criticize regardless.

I still prefer a new HC and OC. And entire new set up and direction. But I can live with Garrett for another year, since they get a new OC. If Garrett gets an extension, then I hope they get the OC figured out, and not see the same old stuff going forward.

Why am I posting this, it is not to defend Garrett. And not to knock Garrett. Just looking at it from different viewpoint, as opposed to the constant bashing all the time.

:popcorn:

I think that's pretty fair. He has made some bad decisions but he has improved over time considerably. He grew a lot as a coach this year.

I think he is much better than most of the coaches in the NFL. Lots of coaches make lots of mistakes. We just don't know about them because we don't root for those teams.

In my opinion, one of the biggest legitimate criticisms of the Cowboys organization is that Jerry way overpaid to keep mediocre players which decimated depth.

Garrett, Stephen and McClay have seemingly rectified that over the past three seasons. I'm glad to see the benefits of that finally coming into play. Hopefully we will stay on that course. If Jerry will leave McClay, Stephen and Garrett alone I think they will get Jerry another super bowl win before he passes away.
 

Sydla

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I think that's pretty fair. He has made some bad decisions but he has improved over time considerably. He grew a lot as a coach this year.

I think he is much better than most of the coaches in the NFL. Lots of coaches make lots of mistakes. We just don't know about them because we don't root for those teams.

In my opinion, one of the biggest legitimate criticisms of the Cowboys organization is that Jerry way overpaid to keep mediocre players which decimated depth.

Garrett, Stephen and McClay have seemingly rectified that over the past three seasons. I'm glad to see the benefits of that finally coming into play. Hopefully we will stay on that course. If Jerry will leave McClay, Stephen and Garrett alone I think they will get Jerry another super bowl win before he passes away.

Much better than most of the coaches?

So where's that rank him? Top 10? Top 7? Top 5?
 

Kaiser

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The king of generalized statements and platitudes is tearing it up once again as well.

Sorry if you are still butthurt over your last list of strawmen, but no serious person thinks Nolan Ryan is the average pitcher to draw a baseline from.
 

TheDude

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Sorry if you are still butthurt over your last list of strawmen, but no serious person thinks Nolan Ryan is the average pitcher to draw a baseline from.
On the contrary, not butthurt at all, you dodged the last round as suspect you will here as well. Since you opened with a snarky comment versus addressing the question in the first reply, pretty telling who is butthurt

But outside of Jamie Moyer, who fits your bill? Knuckleball pitchers are not quite the "slightly above average pitches" since they have one pitch.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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Lol...you know Jimmy did That? Never heard anyone say that . Jason stepped in during the 7-1 stretch, you giving him credit there.

Ahhh Yeah. I know for a fact that Jimmy did that and not just once, Jimmy was famous for taking control of games at critical junctures and telling his Coordinators what they were going to do.

As for Garrett, he actually went 5-3 but you really need to study that season. Look at the Offense the first 8 games and remember, Phillips did not have say over the Offense then. Garrett had say over the Offense because of Jerry. Look at the play calling in the first half and the second half. It's night and day. In the first half, we threw the ball way too much.

Wash. 47 attempts
Chicago 51 attempts
Houston 30 attempts
Titans 46 attempts
Vikings 32 attempts
Giants 40 attempts
Jags 49 attempts
Packers 30 attempts

Then look at the second half of the season:

Giants 22 attempts
Lions 24 attempts
Saints 42 attempts
Colts 26 attempts
Eagles 35 attempts
Wash 37 attempts
Cards 37 attempts
Eagles 27 attempts

If you look at the scores of the first half, 5 of the 7 losses were by 7 or less. The Offensive balance in the first half of the season was terrible and what we saw game after game was our Defense gassed in the 4th quarter. In the second half of the season, you saw much more balance between the run and the pass. What you was was a team that was helping their defense by running the ball and allowing them to hang in longer in close games. In the three losses, in the second half of the season, 3 of the four highest attempts were registered in those losses. The only game we won (37 attempts) was against the skins 33-30. Much more balance in the second half and that just wasn't present, at all, in the first half. Going back to what I said earlier, Garrett had control of the Offense, Phillips didn't. He had control of the Defense and that was a Jerry call. So yes, I not only give Garrett credit for the last 8 games, I give him credit for the first 8 games as well.

Cowboys did Wade Phillips dirty but he got us back in the Playoffs this year.
 

Kaiser

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On the contrary, not butthurt at all, you dodged the last round as suspect you will here as well. Since you opened with a snarky comment versus addressing the question in the first reply, pretty telling who is butthurt

But outside of Jamie Moyer, who fits your bill? Knuckleball pitchers are not quite the "slightly above average pitches" since they have one pitch.

So every pitcher in MLB and MiLB history who isn't Nolan Ryan is Jamie Moyer.

But you want to be taken seriously. Or something.
 

Dre11

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Ahhh Yeah. I know for a fact that Jimmy did that and not just once, Jimmy was famous for taking control of games at critical junctures and telling his Coordinators what they were going to do.

As for Garrett, he actually went 5-3 but you really need to study that season. Look at the Offense the first 8 games and remember, Phillips did not have say over the Offense then. Garrett had say over the Offense because of Jerry. Look at the play calling in the first half and the second half. It's night and day. In the first half, we threw the ball way too much.

Wash. 47 attempts
Chicago 51 attempts
Houston 30 attempts
Titans 46 attempts
Vikings 32 attempts
Giants 40 attempts
Jags 49 attempts
Packers 30 attempts

Then look at the second half of the season:

Giants 22 attempts
Lions 24 attempts
Saints 42 attempts
Colts 26 attempts
Eagles 35 attempts
Wash 37 attempts
Cards 37 attempts
Eagles 27 attempts

If you look at the scores of the first half, 5 of the 7 losses were by 7 or less. The Offensive balance in the first half of the season was terrible and what we saw game after game was our Defense gassed in the 4th quarter. In the second half of the season, you saw much more balance between the run and the pass. What you was was a team that was helping their defense by running the ball and allowing them to hang in longer in close games. In the three losses, in the second half of the season, 3 of the four highest attempts were registered in those losses. The only game we won (37 attempts) was against the skins 33-30. Much more balance in the second half and that just wasn't present, at all, in the first half. Going back to what I said earlier, Garrett had control of the Offense, Phillips didn't. He had control of the Defense and that was a Jerry call. So yes, I not only give Garrett credit for the last 8 games, I give him credit for the first 8 games as well.

Cowboys did Wade Phillips dirty but he got us back in the Playoffs this year.
Give me your facts, every thing I've heard was he let his coaches coach, that he wasn't a X and O coach. Which is why he surrounded himself with very good coordinators.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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Give me your facts, every thing I've heard was he let his coaches coach, that he wasn't a X and O coach. Which is why he surrounded himself with very good coordinators.

What facts do you think I can provide? It's well known that at critical moments, Jimmy would Tell Norv that he had 4 downs on 1st and goal to run the ball in. He did that all the time. It's well known that Jimmy would call up pressure in certain situations on Defense when he felt that a plan needed to be made. I mean, there are no stats for that. How do you prove that? He didn't let "his coaches coach". He allowed his coaches to run their schemes but when the game was on the line, Jimmy made the calls and anybody who says different either has no idea what they are talking about or was not there and is just make stuff up.

That's who Jimmy was. Jimmy understood when things needed to happen and BTW, Jimmy was not an X's and O's genius but he did know football and it was his team and he did make the calls.
 

TheDude

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So every pitcher in MLB and MiLB history who isn't Nolan Ryan is Jamie Moyer.

But you want to be taken seriously. Or something.
Yea, that is exactly what I posted, .... good god.

You can have "win", the internet tough guy routine is a bit of a banality. Try to address the argument and not the person next time. It has better staying power
 

Dre11

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What facts do you think I can provide? It's well known that at critical moments, Jimmy would Tell Norv that he had 4 downs on 1st and goal to run the ball in. He did that all the time. It's well known that Jimmy would call up pressure in certain situations on Defense when he felt that a plan needed to be made. I mean, there are no stats for that. How do you prove that? He didn't let "his coaches coach". He allowed his coaches to run their schemes but when the game was on the line, Jimmy made the calls and anybody who says different either has no idea what they are talking about or was not there and is just make stuff up.

That's who Jimmy was. Jimmy understood when things needed to happen and BTW, Jimmy was not an X's and O's genius but he did know football and it was his team and he did make the calls.

Again it's not well known if so you could provide facts, he was a motivator and disciplinarian . Outside of that nobody knows how much he had is hands on playcalls.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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Again it's not well known if so you could provide facts, he was a motivator and disciplinarian . Outside of that nobody knows how much he had is hands on playcalls.

Yeah, it is. If you are really 46 and you have been a fan this entire time, you would know this so either you aren't 46 or you haven't been a fan all this time. This is a well known fact about Jimmy but you know what, I'm trying to pass on knowledge. It's up to you if you want to accept it or not. No skin of me if you decide not to.

For the record, I never said he called specific plays. He may have, I don't know, but he would take control of the Offense or Defense and tell his coordinators that the team was going to run the ball or the team was going to send pressure. He would absolutely do that in certain situations. I mean, how can you not know this?
 
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