Cap ramifications of tagging and trading Dak?

Adreme · Jan 18, 2021

ABQCOWBOY said:
I don't really think this is possible for Dak. If Dak doesn't sign his tag, then he's right back in the same situation, same number, next year. He's also another season away from playing football and a lot more to prove because he will have then sat 28 games without playing a down of football. How many teams would then be interested or as interested in paying him a premium contract for a QB who has been away from the game for so long and doesn't really have a history of success in post season?

Its not about not signing the tag, its about not signing the tag until after the draft and free agency. Dak's tag number would not change if he signed the tag the moment they put it on him versus in July, but the team would not be able to trade him until he signed the tag. That is the power Dak has. If he waits until July, he still signs the tag, and still gets all the money he would have gotten under the tag plus the year towards FA, but now trading him is useless because the only thing you do is clear 37 million in cap space that you cant really use on anyone because no one useful is still available.

ABQCOWBOY · Jan 18, 2021

Adreme said:
Its not about not signing the tag, its about not signing the tag until after the draft and free agency. Dak's tag number would not change if he signed the tag the moment they put it on him versus in July, but the team would not be able to trade him until he signed the tag. That is the power Dak has. If he waits until July, he still signs the tag, and still gets all the money he would have gotten under the tag plus the year towards FA, but now trading him is useless because the only thing you do is clear 37 million in cap space that you cant really use on anyone because no one useful is still available.

No, that's not the only thing you do. You can work out a Trade with any team. So the Cowboys could still work out a trade in July for Dak if they wanted to and roll over very valuable cap space, which would be huge in today's covid cap era.

jaythecowboy · Jan 18, 2021

ABQCOWBOY said:
No, that's not the only thing you do. You can work out a Trade with any team. So the Cowboys could still work out a trade in July for Dak if they wanted to and roll over very valuable cap space, which would be huge in today's covid cap era.

By July teams have already made their decisions at qb (and for the rest of their roster). It's gonna be hard to find a team that will even have the cap space at that point to take Dak's $37 million tag. And the team taking on Dak would only have a one-year rental with their only recourse being a 3rd tag which is prohibitively expensive. You will get little in a trade at that point unless Dak expressed he would re-sign there. If that's the route you wanted to go you'd be better off just letting him walk and taking the comp pick.

ABQCOWBOY · Jan 18, 2021

jaythecowboy said:
By July teams have already made their decisions at qb (and for the rest of their roster). It's gonna be hard to find a team that will even have the cap space at that point to take Dak's $37 million tag. And the team taking on Dak would only have a one-year rental with their only recourse being a 3rd tag which is prohibitively expensive. You will get little in a trade at that point unless Dak expressed he would re-sign there. If that's the route you wanted to go you'd be better off just letting him walk and taking the comp pick.

No, if Dak waits till July to make his decision, then fine. To me, all that says is that the Cowboys need to be in the market for a young QB right now. If Dak waits, then trade him the minute he signs. I mean, according to a lot of fans, any team is going to jump at the chance to trade for him and pay him right so yeah, trade him the minute he signs, suffer through a bad season, save 37 mil against this years cap and go out and get yourself a QB next year. It's one year but if you sign him to a mega deal this next contract, it's another 7 to 8 years of what we saw with Romo.

gjkoeppen · Jan 18, 2021

Adreme said:
You are being very naïve here. Remember the NFL technically has a legal tampering period where other teams can negotiate with players but NOT using specific contract numbers and yet somehow the moment that players can sign the specific contracts are somehow already worked out with the agents with no objections. The point bein that just because you technically cannot be talking does not mean you are not actually talking and everyone will kind of just look the other way as they have been for years.

That ONLY applies to FREE AGENTS not players offered a franchise tag. It is and has been for a couple years now that 3 days prior to the actual start of free agency teams can make offers to players but they can not accept them until fee agency actually starts. That still does not include players that franchise tags have been offered to.
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Adreme · Jan 18, 2021

ABQCOWBOY said:
No, that's not the only thing you do. You can work out a Trade with any team. So the Cowboys could still work out a trade in July for Dak if they wanted to and roll over very valuable cap space, which would be huge in today's covid cap era.

Valuable cap space for what? Free agency is basically over and you had to hold his salary for the entirety of it (because the moment you put the tag that money is part of your cap whether he signs it or not) which means that is 37m you cannot spend during FA on any talent. So congratulations you have 37M in cap space available in June/July but no one worth spending it on because FA is over and the draft is over and you got a pick or two for next years draft, but it effectively means you are tanking this year.

Jake · Jan 18, 2021

fivetwos said:
Love debating things that have less than a zero percent shot of happening.

Who should I go out with Friday night: Kate Beckinsale or Elizabeth Hurley?

Adreme · Jan 18, 2021

gjkoeppen said:
That ONLY applies to FREE AGENTS not players offered a franchise tag. It is and has been for a couple years now that 3 days prior to the actual start of free agency teams can make offers to players but they can not accept them until fee agency actually starts. That still does not include players that franchise tags have been offered to.
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You misunderstood the point of that story. The point is that just because you cant technically do a thing before time x, does not mean that it is not happening anyway. In my example they are not allowed to negotiate contracts but it is CLEARLY happening anyway because the deals are being reported minutes after FA officially starts. In this case if you cannot technically negotiate a trade, that would not mean it is not happening anyway (if they wanted to go this route). It is another one of those rules that basically just exists on paper.

baltcowboy · Jan 18, 2021

Killerinstinct said:
Does anyone know what they would be?

Mortensen just said that the asking price starts at 3 first round picks for Watson. Since him and Dak are similar quarterbacks teams might be better off signing Dak and giving up the two first rounders. Dak agent is grinning ear to ear now.

DFWJC · Jan 18, 2021

jterrell said:
In a normal situation sure.
But:
1. Dak is coming off major injury meaning Dallas knows far more about his health than any new teams.
1a. He can't pass a physical today.
2. DeShaun Watson is available, healthy and already signed long term.

Again it takes a completely illogical leap of faith to find a way Dak moves on early in the off-season at all and definitely with any real return to the Dallas Cowboys.

Dallas is not in a position to get any of the other coveted QBs nor can they trade Dak before he signs a tender which he can't even do if he wanted to until the new league year opens.
If Indy wanted Dak I'm sure they could start those discussions to check on his health and gather data and such but why would a team trying to go win it all want to give up draft capital this year?? Of course they wouldn't.
They have no reason to do a deal before April's draft either.

I was answering from Dak's point of view, not Dallas'.
The poster said Dak would not accept a trade even to a good team if it was there. I said that there are reasons why he might if the deal was worth it.

gjkoeppen · Jan 19, 2021

Adreme said:
You misunderstood the point of that story. The point is that just because you cant technically do a thing before time x, does not mean that it is not happening anyway. In my example they are not allowed to negotiate contracts but it is CLEARLY happening anyway because the deals are being reported minutes after FA officially starts. In this case if you cannot technically negotiate a trade, that would not mean it is not happening anyway (if they wanted to go this route). It is another one of those rules that basically just exists on paper.

And what you're not getting is NOW and for the past several years teams have been FREELY able to talk to players from other teams for the 3 days prior to the start of free agency. The change in this was because a player if I remember right from the titans signed a new contract 4 minutes after free agency started with I think Washington and the league got tire of this happening so they nailed Washington with a loss of a draft pick for tampering and then changed the rule to what it is now. What you're saying did happen but the league then revised the franchise tag rules to make it so no teams can be in communication about any player tagged prior to signing the tag or a new contract. It's not hard to spot when it could be done. Using Prescott as an example, Jones kept pushing for a 5 year contract and Prescott wanted a 4 year deal. So now all of a sudden Prescott and the Cowboys agree on a 3 year deal that pays more per year and signs this contract and just as suddenly Prescott is traded to another team. It wouldn't take an Einstein to see that the team that traded for Prescott and Prescott worked out the contract after that team and the Cowboys agreed on the conditions of the trade. The league would see that all of a sudden Jones just happened to drop his 5 year deal all the way down to a 3 year deal for more money and then just found a team willing to give up what he wanted in trade and did this all in one day? The league would void both the trade and the contract and rule Prescott is still under the tag. The league under NFL by-laws all player contracts are reviewed by the league and the league has the authority to void any contract that does not follow all NFL rules. The can do the same on trades. It happened to the Cowboys with Duane Thomas getting traded to the patriots but when he refused to show up for practice the patriots went to the league and Rozelle voided the trade and Thomas was a Cowboy again.
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Adreme · Jan 19, 2021

gjkoeppen said:
And what you're not getting is NOW and for the past several years teams have been FREELY able to talk to players from other teams for the 3 days prior to the start of free agency. The change in this was because a player if I remember right from the titans signed a new contract 4 minutes after free agency started with I think Washington and the league got tire of this happening so they nailed Washington with a loss of a draft pick for tampering and then changed the rule to what it is now. What you're saying did happen but the league then revised the franchise tag rules to make it so no teams can be in communication about any player tagged prior to signing the tag or a new contract. It's not hard to spot when it could be done. Using Prescott as an example, Jones kept pushing for a 5 year contract and Prescott wanted a 4 year deal. So now all of a sudden Prescott and the Cowboys agree on a 3 year deal that pays more per year and signs this contract and just as suddenly Prescott is traded to another team. It wouldn't take an Einstein to see that the team that traded for Prescott and Prescott worked out the contract after that team and the Cowboys agreed on the conditions of the trade. The league would see that all of a sudden Jones just happened to drop his 5 year deal all the way down to a 3 year deal for more money and then just found a team willing to give up what he wanted in trade and did this all in one day? The league would void both the trade and the contract and rule Prescott is still under the tag. The league under NFL by-laws all player contracts are reviewed by the league and the league has the authority to void any contract that does not follow all NFL rules. The can do the same on trades. It happened to the Cowboys with Duane Thomas getting traded to the patriots but when he refused to show up for practice the patriots went to the league and Rozelle voided the trade and Thomas was a Cowboy again.
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First thing, I just checked and the TEAM can negotiate a trade with other teams (I looked up the top 3 results to checking that out so while not scientific I will accept it as true for now barring evidence to the contrary). HOWEVER, the only way they can actually execute that trade is if Dak signs the tag itself. Dak is not the one negotiating with those teams but considering that no team is going to trade for Dak after the signing deadline (and after the draft/FA period it makes no sense for the Cowboys to do so) so if the Cowboys go to Dak and say "Miami just offered us a haul and they are prepared to give you the money you want if you sign the tag," Dak can go "I do not want to play for MIami," and then not sign the tag until post draft and no trade happens.

Scotman · Jan 19, 2021

jterrell said:
Yes.
All you need is
a new team willing to sign him now while injured and give up draft pick comp BEFORE April.
Dak being willing to move from the Prosper ranch he just built with a football field.
New team and Dak agreeing to a long-term deal that also compensates Dallas.

IF all that happens you have the cap space back in full and can chase a QB on the open market or draft one at 10.

Basically better odds of winning the lotto.

SOMEBODY HAS TO WIN, RIGHT?

You said it really well.

jterrell · Jan 19, 2021

DFWJC said:
I was answering from Dak's point of view, not Dallas'.
The poster said Dak would not accept a trade even to a good team if it was there. I said that there are reasons why he might if the deal was worth it.

Have you ever heard of anyone moving when they have a serious injury?
Just logistically Dak isn't moving anytime soon.
He just purchased a large Ranch and built out a football field in his backyard.
Not exactly a great return on investment to move after 1 year.
And I can imagine few worse things in life than trying to move while being on crutches.

Dak loves Kellen and they have stayed together very intentionally.
This is Dak's team and his offense.
There's zero logical reason to believe he'd leave unless he had to.
And his worst case scenario is what? Make 37.7M and his hand-picked OC with these weapons on offense?

At every turn Dallas FO and Dak have both said they are going to get a deal done and there's been exactly zero whispers of any other teams ever being discussed in even the slightest way.

It would take a DeShaun Watson like turn and even in Watson's case he hasn't been moved yet.

ABQCOWBOY · Jan 19, 2021

Adreme said:
Valuable cap space for what? Free agency is basically over and you had to hold his salary for the entirety of it (because the moment you put the tag that money is part of your cap whether he signs it or not) which means that is 37m you cannot spend during FA on any talent. So congratulations you have 37M in cap space available in June/July but no one worth spending it on because FA is over and the draft is over and you got a pick or two for next years draft, but it effectively means you are tanking this year.

Oh right, because the NFL is closing up shop after next season. Why on earth would you need to save Cap right? I mean, it's not like teams role cap savings over or anything. There will be no more players for us to resign, no FAs, nothing like that. Are you actually paying attention to what you are saying here?

dckid · Jan 19, 2021

Rockport said:
Oh hell.

No ramifications. I just don't know if anyone would give up two number 1 picks and pay him 38 million a year.
I wish there was a way to move that down to 1 pick and just let him move on.
He is a good QB, not good enough to be playing in the last 4 teams. Just ran that calculus in your head. If we were the 49ers and had their talent and coaching I would bite the bullet and pay him knowing that Shanahan can coach him up and put him in a position to succeed. He did it with Jimmy G, and even Matt Ryan, heck even RG3...
For the Cowboys to pay him is idiotic.. I would say almost insane.
Sign Jameis, and let Dak leave.

Creeper · Jan 19, 2021

I would franchise and trade Dak if he refuses to sign a reasonable long term deal. If he plays on the franchise tag again this year, then his franchise salary next year balloons to a 144% of his 2021 salary. That's over $52 million in Dak's case. No way the Cowboys could entertain such a high salary for Dak, even for 1 year. If Dak does not sign long term in 2021, then he is not signing at all. It means he wants to test the open market to see what deals he can make. If that is the case, then why keep him? Waiting until 2022 to find out he wants free agency means they get nothing for him.

If they trade him in 2021, they have over $50 million in CAP space to sign another QB and rebuild the defense.

Adreme · Jan 19, 2021

ABQCOWBOY said:
Oh right, because the NFL is closing up shop after next season. Why on earth would you need to save Cap right? I mean, it's not like teams role cap savings over or anything. There will be no more players for us to resign, no FAs, nothing like that. Are you actually paying attention to what you are saying here?

So tank next year on the hopes that maybe you can sign people 2 years from now and find a QB 2 years from now. Of course in 2 years there will be a lot of teams with cap room, given how the cap will bounce back up, so that sort of is a catch 22 there as well

The root problem for Dallas is they can easily afford to sign all of their core FAs over the next 2-3 years because outside of Dak they have drafted none. Building through FA almost never works so you will have a bunch of cap space that will go towards buying players who will likely not produce and now you are locked into more big contracts.

Ranched · Jan 19, 2021

Killerinstinct said:
Does anyone know what they would be?

Dak was given the exclusive tag in 2020, his base salary will be $31.4 million. Due to the CBA rule that a player tagged for a second time will make 120% of that salary, he stands to make $37.69 million in 2021.

The total amount, $69.1 million is a lot of money. So much money, that the Cowboys don’t currently have the room to afford it. No 2nd tag for Dak!

Trajan · Jan 19, 2021

rocyaice said:
I think the bigger question is what incentive does Dak have to help the Cowboys out by doing a sign and trade with them when he's not under contract lol?

Go to a team that could win ?

Cap ramifications of tagging and trading Dak?

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