A Case for Greg Ellis.

[jterrell]

I don't see it as vitriol at all. I see it as 3 years of frustration at this yearly insulting tactic.

Not one person in here is so anti-Greg Ellis that they would refuse to shake his hand or will throw a BBQ if/when is cut, traded, or retires.

Don't equate frustration of fans to hatred. That's nonsense.

LOL, let's not get on a merry-go-round here.

Note my last line about perception then your first line about how 'you' see it.
Also you add 'insulting tactic'?

What is insulting about and insulting to whom?

If a guy feels he is underpaid making 50k a year and asks for more money who is he insulting? Is he insulting all those who make less than that? Is he insulting his Boss? His company?

I just don't get(see my perception here) the side in this that feels they are a victim because Greg Ellis thinks he is....

Why do any of us care what he says at all provided he does his job?

My challenge about Greg Ellis would be this.
find any player in the league with more starts and more sacks then Greg Ellis since 1998 who makes less money than him. Any one player at all.

If that is not possible then perhaps any one player who is on their second contract, has more starts and makes less than him....


Terry Glenn has been injury prone. He was given a quite large pay bump before his contract near up. So Jerry has renegotiated a guy's contract before it was near up to get it inline with other salaries.

 

[Hostile]

He said he always "wanted to be a voice of reason."

He didn't say necessarily he was one or that he believes his take on the situation is the only way a "voice of reason" would have.

I agree with this interpretation and it's because I know JT pretty well. He does always want to be a voice of reason and he truly hopes he is. I think that's a great quality to aspire to.

 

[superpunk]

The original poster makes his arguments in support of Greg Ellis very well, I just do not agree with them. I understand WHY Greg Ellis is crying for an extension, I just do not believe that he merits a new contract. I do not remember Ellis whining that he was woefully underpaid when he signed his current contract. He was happy with the contract when he signed it, or he would not have signed it.

I seriously do not understand the thought process of many of the posters here who support Ellis' position on getting a big pay day when he is coming off a major injury. In reality, Ellis might not ever play football again.

If that is the case, the Cowboys won't be getting back any of the signing bonus they gave him, even if they were to cut or trade him, resulting in a windfall to Ellis for the time he was employed by the cowboys. Even if Ellis hadn't been injured last year, he does not "deserve" a new contract. He "deserves" to play out the one he signed.

The fact that he was the leading sack leader for the Cowboys for many years is not so much a feather in his cap as it is a knock on the state of the woeful Cowboys' teams since Ellis was drafted. None of those teams will be confused with the Ravens team that won the superbowl.

Ellis has been a steady solid player. I will also agree that he fits in the mold of a player that New England might have selected, as far as his performance has been steady and at an above average level. But players of Ellis' caliber are usually selected in the latter part of round one, not the eighth overall pick. You should expect to get an IMPACT player at the eighth pick, not just a solid performer. The draft value chart (although somewhat out of touch with reality as well) indicates the premium teams place on such a high pick.

Ellis wasn't a horrible pick, but to say that he has been anything other than solid, so far, is a bit of a stretch.

Well said. The comparison of Ellis to other "8" picks is narrow.

I disagree that Ellis is a Patriots player. If he had carried on this crying game with Bellichick for three years now, he'd have cut him long ago.

The man signed a fair deal 4-5 years ago. He has not outplayed the deal he signed. He has not even reached the incentives in the deal he signed. He is coming off a major injury, and three consecutive years of off-season whining, without having the stones to do anything about it.

It rings hollow by now. And that's not "hate".

 

[Everlastingxxx]

So you're telling me that if you argue with your wife it is because you hate her?

Man, your world is awfully extreme.

Pesonally, I think that's nonsense and you don't really even believe it. Unless you hear or read someone say "I hate Greg Ellis" then assuming that they do is lame.

You can hate someone at that moment and still love them.

You are calling me out for using the word hate, and it’s a waste of time. My point was to not go to the extremes.

 

[Hostile]

LOL, let's not get on a merry-go-round here.

Note my last line about perception then your first line about how 'you' see it.
Also you add 'insulting tactic'?

What is insulting about and insulting to whom?

If a guy feels he is underpaid making 50k a year and asks for more money who is he insulting? Is he insulting all those who make less than that? Is he insulting his Boss? His company?

I just don't get(see my perception here) the side in this that feels they are a victim because Greg Ellis thinks he is....

Why do any of us care what he says at all provided he does his job?

My challenge about Greg Ellis would be this.
find any player in the league with more starts and more sacks then Greg Ellis since 1998 who makes less money than him. Any one player at all.

If that is not possible then perhaps any one player who is on their second contract, has more starts and makes less than him....


Terry Glenn has been injury prone. He was given a quite large pay bump before his contract near up. So Jerry has renegotiated a guy's contract before it was near up to get it inline with other salaries.

I'll tell you what JT, I will respond to your challenge when you respond to mine. Don't think I haven't noticed that you didn't respond.

Just to refresh your memory that challenge was and is...

Name me one player who in the middle of his contract, after a season ending injury, asked for and got a newer, better deal. I won't even try and pigeon hole you to one criteria like "1998," by all means take the entire NFL and its 80 year history with thousands of players, and give me an example. Just one.

Fair enough?

 

[jterrell]

JT!

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1525199&postcount=38

Now, really. That's not what you meant? I've respected your comments for years and honestly did not see that one coming. :laugh2: In time, we shall see if I have contradicted myself in any way concerning this soap opera Ellis has created via the media. If there is a whopper of a re-negotiated deal from Jones, I will have. If it's a whimper of a re-negotiated deal or none whatsoever, I don't think so. Stay tuned.

Tone is hard to get across DE in a post.

My point here was not to tell you to do anything.
But merely to say no need to submit yourself to that which frustrates or annoys you.

 

[Hostile]

You can hate someone at that moment and still love them.

You are calling me out for using the word hate, and it’s a waste of time. My point was to not go to the extremes.

I do not buy this explanation at all, and you're damn right I did. It's a crutch. Throw the crutch away and debate the discussion without it.

 

[Jarv]

My challenge about Greg Ellis would be this.
find any player in the league with more starts and more sacks then Greg Ellis since 1998 who makes less money than him. Any one player at all.

If that is not possible then perhaps any one player who is on their second contract, has more starts and makes less than him....

Very good challenges, I'm very interested to see those results...Adam ???

If Greg was cut, how much would the Skins offer him in a signing bonus ? They need DE's bad !!!

 

[jterrell]

I'll tell you what JT, I will respond to your challenge when you respond to mine. Don't think I haven't noticed that you didn't respond.

Just to refresh your memory that challenge was and is...

Name me one player who in the middle of his contract, after a season ending injury, asked for and got a newer, better deal. I won't even try and pigeon hole you to one criteria like "1998," by all means take the entire NFL and its 80 year history with thousands of players, and give me an example. Just one.

Fair enough?

I did respond....

I stated that injured players get contracts with new teams as they are cut and that Greg Ellis is not going to be cut because he is so cheap.

I absolutely agree his health status is the primary point in favor of not ever giving him another red cent.

Your challenge is quite hard to respond to in that it requires information across many teams and many players without a direct correlation to any stat.
Contracts themselves are not even released except unofficially.

I fully admit I am far from Adamjt13 with access or ability to quickly find that type of info and would suggest it is quite rare indeed if it has in fact occurred.

 

[DallasEast]

Tone is hard to get across DE in a post.

My point here was not to tell you to do anything.
But merely to say no need to submit yourself to that which frustrates or annoys you.

Fair enough, but you should know me by now that's not going to happen. As the old Budweiser Beer Man used to say, "I love you, man!"

 

[Jarv]

Fair enough, but you should know me by now that's not going to happen. As the old Budweiser Beer Man used to say, "I love you, man!"

I favored the 3 frogs...Bud...Weisss...errr

 

[DallasEast]

I favored the 3 frogs...Bud...Weisss...errr

The frogs were great, but you can't leave out the Budweiser lizards.

I miss the old Bud Bowls.

 

[jterrell]

Well said. The comparison of Ellis to other "8" picks is narrow.

I disagree that Ellis is a Patriots player. If he had carried on this crying game with Bellichick for three years now, he'd have cut him long ago.

The man signed a fair deal 4-5 years ago. He has not outplayed the deal he signed. He has not even reached the incentives in the deal he signed. He is coming off a major injury, and three consecutive years of off-season whining, without having the stones to do anything about it.

It rings hollow by now. And that's not "hate".

Compare Greg Ellis to nay grouping you'd like of his peers.

It had to be narrow for my research is it was my time invested.

I used both top 20 in his draft narrowing him to his immediate draftee peers and then to number 8 picks because the argument is Greg Ellis is not worth a top 8 pick....

Please do compare Greg Ellis to any subset of players related at all to his draft selection....

 

[Hostile]

I did respond....

I stated that injured players get contracts with new teams as they are cut and that Greg Ellis is not going to be cut because he is so cheap.

I absolutely agree his health status is the primary point in favor of not ever giving him another red cent.

Your challenge is quite hard to respond to in that it requires information across many teams and many players without a direct correlation to any stat.
Contracts themselves are not even released except unofficially.

I fully admit I am far from Adamjt13 with access or ability to quickly find that type of info and would suggest it is quite rare indeed if it has in fact occurred.

This isn't a response at all.

First of all you have the qualifier in there of being cut. He didn't ask to get released until he found out they weren't warm to his idea of a new deal.

My criteria is not hard at all. Show me one player in NFL history who got a new deal in the middle of an existing contract after a major injury. Essentially that is what Greg Ellis is seeking and what fans here find ludicruous.

I'll tell you what JT, I will make you a wager. You pick any of the guys who supposedly "hate" Greg Ellis and you ask them this question. "If Greg Ellis had not been hurt and the 2nd half of 2006 had been as productive as the first half of 2006 for him, would you begrudge him wanting a new deal?"

By all means, find the "haters" ask them this question and ask them to post their response in this thread.

I seriously doubt you will find anyone who fits the stereotype you're trying to paint. Not even from the "wish we had taken Randy Moss guys" nor the "he's never had double digit sacks" guys. Know why? Because the fans here are a lot more rational than you're giving them credit for by calling them "haters," and no I don't necessarily mean you are calling them that. I am talking about the perception.

 

[WoodysGirl]

per DMN Calvin Watkins chat wrap..

hammer: What was the result of the meeting between Stephen Jones and Greg Ellis' agent?

Calvin Watkins: It really wasn't a meeting. James Williams, Ellis' agent, showed up to make sure no more fireworks would happen on Saturday. Williams talked with Stephen and Jerry Jones during practice then had dinner at Ellis' house that night. Williams left town Sunday morning. Everything is quiet right now. Jerry is mad at Ellis, but the owner has all the power right now.

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89036

 

[Everlastingxxx]

I do not buy this explanation at all, and you're damn right I did. It's a crutch. Throw the crutch away and debate the discussion without it.

When i said i didn’t understand the hate, i ment i didn’t understand the insults. To me when someone insults it is out of hate or a dislike. I don’t understand your crutch or weak minded comments because they do not apply to me.

 

[superpunk]

Compare Greg Ellis to nay grouping you'd like of his peers.

It had to be narrow for my research is it was my time invested.

I used both top 20 in his draft narrowing him to his immediate draftee peers and then to number 8 picks because the argument is Greg Ellis is not worth a top 8 pick....

Please do compare Greg Ellis to any subset of players related at all to his draft selection....

Let's look at players drafted within 5 spots of that 8 spot - we'll keep it reasonable and go five spots lower, so players 8-12.

From that list, we have DeAngelo Hall, Ben Roethlisberger, Jonathan Vilma, Kevin Williams, Terrell Suggs, Roy Williams, John Henderson, Dwight Freeney, Plaxico Burress, Brian Urlacher, Chris McCallister and Daunte Culpepper. Ellis doesn't belong in a discussion with these players.

He signed a deal, by doing so he agreed that it was fair.

He has not outperformed the deal that was agreed upon.

We're in year three of the whinefest.

He's coming off an injury, and still has the gall to be the same old money-grubbing selfish player he has been. He should be thanking Jerry. After all, at the time they signed a deal, better players than Ellis had just gotten similar deals. Ellis had never even sniffed Little's territory, but Jerry gave him a seven year deal. And this is how the "good guy" show's gratitude? By claiming he was cheated by the hand of evil Bill Parcells back in the day?

He didn't deserve the deal he got when he got it. He saw the seven years and guaranteed money, and snatched it up. Now he's got remorse, because the market has changed, he's old, and he likely won't be getting another deal.

That's tough cheese. It's not show-friends.

 

[Cochese]

THIS is what I expect from a DE that you pick in the top 10:

Julius Peppers
Richard Seymour
Javon Kearse (when healthy)
Micheal Strahan

You expect a Pro Bowl player that makes a SERIOUS difference in a game.

Just curious, what do you expect from a TOP 5 picked corner? I'd be willing to bet its more than 1 interception in 16 games.

 

[DallasEast]

per DMN Calvin Watkins chat wrap..

hammer: What was the result of the meeting between Stephen Jones and Greg Ellis' agent?

Calvin Watkins: It really wasn't a meeting. James Williams, Ellis' agent, showed up to make sure no more fireworks would happen on Saturday. Williams talked with Stephen and Jerry Jones during practice then had dinner at Ellis' house that night. Williams left town Sunday morning. Everything is quiet right now. Jerry is mad at Ellis, but the owner has all the power right now.

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89036

So, if this is what actually happened, Ellis' pandering to the media did not force a meeting between Jones and his agent. In fact, it was his agent who approached Jones to help control the nonsense which his client has ignited.

 

[superpunk]

So, if this is what actually happened, Ellis' pandering to the media did not force a meeting between Jones and his agent. In fact, it was his agent who approached Jones to help control the nonsense which his client has ignited.

Don't tell "media" members like JJT that - they might lose some of that self-important crusade mentality.

"We got classy-guy-Ellis a meeting. Look how great and influential we are!"