A message for Wade Phillips

[Dodger12]

I dont think you can argue that most, if not all the guys are better now than they were with Parcells and Zimmer. Wade is a better defensive coach than either of them and does use players to their strengths better than they did.

I wouldn't and haven't been arguing that. My point was that we haven't been able to identify and develop lower round draft picks and UFA's on the D side of the ball to give us some quality depth. This is exactly what I would expect from a Wade Phillips coached team because he's a far better defensive coach than Zimmer and arguably Parcells. That's all ther more reason why our second team D should have made a better showing against the Raiders.

Like CL said, its HIGHLY UNLIKELY that someone like Ratliff would be a probowl/elite NT in Parcells' scheme. Ware and James are both better players. Spears looked better to me the last two yrs (in spite of the hate he got from alot of people here)...Canty was better in Wade's scheme.

This is complete speculation in terms of what a player would or wouldn't have done with a different coach. These guys were on the roster and an integral part of our D before Wade got here. But my argument was never about these players. Other than Scandrick, who on this roster that was drafted (or UFA) in the lower rounds the past 3 years do you see as an integral part of this D that provides us some quality depth? I agree that Wade's a great D coach and thus, I hold him to a high standard.

 

[Dodger12]

BTW, the way this thread has developed just proves what others said, that this is a pure agenda thread. It's gone from complaints that a bunch of third-team rookies look sloppy in the first preseason game of their lives (whodathunk that), to Wade not being able to "fire up the troops" (which is on its face hilarious for the first preseason game of the year), to him not being able to develop defensive talent.

Let's see, where else can we go?

If our first teams had gotten worked, maybe there'd be a point to be made. But they didn't. And complaining about a bunch of rookies being lost in Preseason Game One is just silly.

And BTW, when did Troy talk to Jimmy during drives? During timeouts?

Lab, I respect you a lot. But just because the thread doesn't go where you want it to go doesn't mean that anyone has an agenda or the thread has gone off track. Read the very first post that started the thread. The Op started a thread in response to Wade's statement that "We didn't really play hard enough to get any injuries." This thread is about Wade. If the players aren't prepared to play, then that falls on the HC. It's preseason, I don't care if we win; but I do care about the make up of this team. I do care about the effort. I do care about our back-ups being a little bit competitive. I do care if guys like Ball, Brown, Dixon, etc. have developed, especially under a defensive guru HC. This team is going to have injuries and go through adversity. If our back-ups can't compete or play flat against another team's back-ups when their job's on the line, what the heck are they going to do when they're called upon to play during the regular season?

 

[theogt]

Lab, I respect you a lot. But just because the thread doesn't go where you want it to go doesn't mean that anyone has an agenda or the thread has gone off track. Read the very first post that started the thread. The Op started a thread in response to Wade's statement that "We didn't really play hard enough to get any injuries." This thread is about Wade. If the players aren't prepared to play, then that falls on the HC. It's preseason, I don't care if we win; but I do care about the make up of this team. I do care about the effort. I do care about our back-ups being a little bit competitive. I do care if guys like Ball, Brown, Dixon, etc. have developed, especially under a defensive guru HC. This team is going to have injuries and go through adversity. If our back-ups can't compete or play flat against another team's back-ups when their job's on the line, what the heck are they going to do when they're called upon to play during the regular season?

Not to speak for CL, but what I think he's getting at is that the OP isn't about Wade in general. It's about a very specific complaint. But because the thread ends up consisting largely of general complaints about Wade (from the typical complainers), it appears to be more of an "agenda" thread than a thread to address a specific topic.

 

[Dodger12]

This...



But okay, how about Scandrick? Let's hear why he doesn't qualify as a "UFA mid/lower round draft pick for some quality depth, especially on the D".

People like Madden were all over Ratliff early in their career. I'd like to think that he would have developed into a pro bowler no matter what the scheme. The same way I'd like to think that if we ever switched to a 4-3, Ware and Ratliff would still be dominant players. The same way that when TO played in another scheme, albeit offense, he was still a Pro Bowl player.

I also mentioned Scandrick in a letter post.

 

[Dodger12]

Not to speak for CL, but what I think he's getting at is that the OP isn't about Wade in general. It's about a very specific complaint. But because the thread ends up consisting largely of general complaints about Wade (from the typical complainers), it appears to be more of an "agenda" thread than a thread to address a specific topic.

I see. So topics don't develop based on people's responses to the original post? If a poster states that our back-ups lack talent in defense of Wade then somehow the thread gets side-tracked because he/she didn't stay on topic about the specific complaint? This thread has had opinions on both ends of the spectrum and those opinions have been civilized. There's really nothing ominous even though some people would like to make it so. And I find it comical that when someone posts a differing opinion that it's somehow agenda driven. There are a lot of sacred cows around here.

 

[BAT]

People like Madden were all over Ratliff early in their career. I'd like to think that he would have developed into a pro bowler no matter what the scheme. The same way I'd like to think that if we ever switched to a 4-3, Ware and Ratliff would still be dominant players. The same way that when TO played in another scheme, albeit offense, he was still a Pro Bowl player.

I also mentioned Scandrick in a letter post.

Madden was high on Ratliff when he played under Parcells, as a backup 3-4 two gap DE and an option at 2 gap NT? Please provide a quote or link, I think you are misremembering.

This is a former 7th rounder who played multiple positions in college, Rat was an unknown uber-athlete and a project coming out of school, no one could have predicted his rise, especially as a 3-4 pro bowl NT.

 

[theogt]

I see. So topics don't develop based on people's responses to the original post? If a poster states that our back-ups lack talent in defense of Wade then somehow the thread gets side-tracked because he/she didn't stay on topic about the specific complaint? This thread has had opinions on both ends of the spectrum and those opinions have been civilized. There's really nothing ominous even though some people would like to make it so. And I find it comical that when someone posts a differing opinion that it's somehow agenda driven. There are a lot of sacred cows around here.

No, when agendas are involved, they do typically develop into multiple and general complaints about the person. As here.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Not to speak for CL, but what I think he's getting at is that the OP isn't about Wade in general. It's about a very specific complaint. But because the thread ends up consisting largely of general complaints about Wade (from the typical complainers), it appears to be more of an "agenda" thread than a thread to address a specific topic.

Precisely.

And dodger, I hear what you're saying and I don't mean to be a jerk about it. But I don't know what you are expecting. In '07 the only late picks on D were Brown and Ball. Ball looks like the kind of developmental player you're talking about, and Brown looks like a bust... No, not a bust, because seventh rounders by definition can't be busts. But by reports, Brown was a Jerry call because of his workout numbers. Last year we got Scandrick and Walden. So it looks like two out of four of those late round picks are players.

It seems like the type of guys you have in mind are the crop we drafted this year, with Butler, Williams, Smith, Hamlin, and Hodge... But we all know it's way too early to judge them at this point.

 

[SLATEmosphere]

So tell me what happened when the first team units came out last December in Philly?

Cause I don't think that 9-6-1 Eagles team was 38 points better than the 9-7 Cowboys team.

Do you?

That was last year. I'm talking about this year. You don't think they learned from that embarrassment? I remember when I was playing college basketball and we got crushed 92-75 in the last game of the year. Our coach was more fiery and passionate as Mike Singletary and gave us a huge rah rah speech before. We still got beat. It was an embarrassment. After the game we said nothing to each other and the coach didn't even come into the locker room. The next year we used that feeling to win the championship.

Speeches are overrated. My question to you is why are players like Lattimore and Hurd playing every down like it's thier last while scrubs like Proctor and Courtney Brown fail to show up? It's in their DNA to be *******. Your eith born with it or your not. Watkins needs to be motivated to play hard? When he's fighting for a roster spot? Well that's just pathetic.

 

[SLATEmosphere]

Not to speak for CL, but what I think he's getting at is that the OP isn't about Wade in general. It's about a very specific complaint. But because the thread ends up consisting largely of general complaints about Wade (from the typical complainers), it appears to be more of an "agenda" thread than a thread to address a specific topic.

Agree 100%. It's just comical how much Wade is getting bashed after one preseason game. It's pathetic that these guys have to get motivated by a coach. You'd think just the passion of the game and fighting for a roster spot would get their juices flowing enough. I would have loved to see Wade cut 5 guys who are at the bottom of the roster that he didn't think was giving it their all. Send a message.

 

[Dodger12]

Madden was high on Ratliff when he played under Parcells, as a backup 3-4 two gap DE and an option at 2 gap NT? Please provide a quote or link, I think you are misremembering.

This is a former 7th rounder who played multiple positions in college, Rat was an unknown uber-athlete and a project coming out of school, no one could have predicted his rise, especially as a 3-4 pro bowl NT.

It caught my attention because Ratliff was a relatively unknown but, if I recall, Madden was talking about his constant motor. Could it have been 2007 instead of 2006 or 2005, maybe it was. I just remeber thinking back then that Madden gave him high praise for a relatively unknown player.

 

[bbgun]

No, when agendas are involved, they do typically develop into multiple and general complaints about the person. As here.

You're right. Much better to have 13 different anti-Wade threads clogging up the front page instead of a nice, tidy, all-purpose clearinghouse thread like this one. And I'll remember that tired "agenda" whine the next time you post an anti-Garrett screed, which could be any minute now.

 

[dcfanatic]

Good call, dead on the money... Romo doesn't need to talk to WP much. Why would he, WP doesn't do jack with the O.

Yeah. Why would the DC do much with the offense.

Head coaches and Offensive Cordinators are the guys who talk and scheme the offense.

 

[dcfanatic]

How about a starter? Like a Pro Bowl nosetackle?

Give it up.

Ratliff would be a Pro Bowler at DE as well.

Many think he's playing out of position right now.

The point is that Wade has very little to do with him being a Pro Bowler.

Jay Ratliff has everything to with Jay Ratliff being a Pro Bowler.

 

[dcfanatic]

He'd never started a game in his life until Wade, had he?

Do you think he'd have been a Pro Bowl nosetackle in Parcells' two-gap scheme?

No, he would be a Pro Bow DE.

 

[bbgun]

Yeah. Why would the DC do much with the offense.

Head coaches and Offensive Cordinators are the guys who talk and scheme the offense.

Ouch.

BTW, do you feel your thread was "hijacked" by people who noticed other flaws in Wade?

 

[dcfanatic]

Bradie James would have probably had his career cut short if he'd continued in Parcells' scheme.

Now he's a Pro Bowl quality player as well. Ratliff would never have even sniffed the starting NT job with Parcells here.

Most players get better with time. He's now a veteran who knows the NFL game.

Was Demarcus Ware a good in his first two seasons as he is now?

And no Ratliff would have been at DE where he belongs. He's going to be doubled team a whole lot more this season and his numbers are going to drop big time if they don't move him to DE in some sets.

 

[dcfanatic]

I dont think you can argue that most, if not all the guys are better now than they were with Parcells and Zimmer. Wade is a better defensive coach than either of them and does use players to their strengths better than they did.

Like CL said, its HIGHLY UNLIKELY that someone like Ratliff would be a probowl/elite NT in Parcells' scheme. Ware and James are both better players. Spears looked better to me the last two yrs (in spite of the hate he got from alot of people here)...Canty was better in Wade's scheme.

They were puppies for Parcells.

You act like players aren't supposed to improve as they become NFL veterans.

:bang2: :bang2: :bang2:

 

[dcfanatic]

BTW, the way this thread has developed just proves what others said, that this is a pure agenda thread. It's gone from complaints that a bunch of third-team rookies look sloppy in the first preseason game of their lives (whodathunk that), to Wade not being able to "fire up the troops" (which is on its face hilarious for the first preseason game of the year), to him not being able to develop defensive talent.

Let's see, where else can we go?

If our first teams had gotten worked, maybe there'd be a point to be made. But they didn't. And complaining about a bunch of rookies being lost in Preseason Game One is just silly.

And BTW, when did Troy talk to Jimmy during drives? During timeouts?

So Carpenter, Brown, Savaii, McQuistan, Stanback, Spencer, Hatcher, Proctor, etc are now rookies?

Stop the BS.

The Wade love from you is what's hilarious.

 

[CowboyMike]

Most players get better with time. He's now a veteran who knows the NFL game.

Was Demarcus Ware a good in his first two seasons as he is now?

And no Ratliff would have been at DE where he belongs. He's going to be doubled team a whole lot more this season and his numbers are going to drop big time if they don't move him to DE in some sets.

Bradie James was forced to play much heavier, around 260, under Parcells. That's why he was such a liability in coverage. Wade slimmed him down and is using him differently than Parcells did. He's protected from blockers now rather than having to take on a guard every play like he did with Parcells. Now he's a much better player.

DeMarcus Ware is better now than he was under Parcells because he rushes the passer much more often than he did. Remember Parcells saying he didn't want to rush Ware as much as everyone thought because he wanted him to be a "complete linebacker"?

And Ratliff was tried at DE last offseason and training camp. Remember they were experimenting with the possibility of switching Spears and Ratliff here and there as a change up? Ratliff just wasn't comfortable as a DE, it didn't work out. He might not be your prototypical NT, but he's still a better NT than anything else.