BTB: Cowboys 2013 Draft Board Leaked... All Seven Rounds (Link Post #21) *Merge*

[xwalker]

My best guess is he's got him confused with Reid but then he's still confused because that has nothing to do with the board. Confusing huh.

My guess is that he was attempting to be a funny smart-arse and failed.

 

[SilverStarCowboy]

Looks like he was off the board because he was off the board, actually. What's it got to do with the 9ers deal?

The 9ers selected Matt Elam with the 18th overall traded from Dallas in a Pre-Draft commitment to Harbaugh from Jones.


Okay it was Reid, my bad, sorry.

The Ravens Drafted Elam #31 Overall.

 

[Idgit]

The 9ers selected Matt Elam with the 18th overall traded from Dallas in a Pre-Draft commitment to Harbaugh from Jones.


Okay it was Reid, my bad, sorry.

The Ravens Drafted Elam #31 Overall.

No worries, I was just confused.

 

[SilverStarCowboy]

No worries, I was just confused.

32nd overall.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt856_nRxQk

 

[Mr_Bill]

I've said it before, but I still don't understand why it is bad after the draft.

The NFL would need to impound the Patriots' draft board before Belichick had a chance to revise it.

 

[hra8700]

This just confirms what we already knew.

Jerrys thought process was "we really need an interior olineman and we only have two players left (pugh and frederick) with more than a 5th round grade. We dont need a dlineman and my coach is telling me that floyd would probably start as a rotation player and that he projects as a one tech in our scheme which is not a very important position. 18 is too rich for either guard so well trade down and take one there and pick up whatever we can pick up."

Basically if they took floyd they wouldnt get an interior olineman. But I vehemently disagree with that strategy. When the number 5 player drops to you at 18, you take him no matter what. And this isnt just a player the cowboys liked, everyone liked him! I havent been this mad at jerry jones since the roy williams trade.

And to those saying it worked out because of terrence williams, by the draft value chart the number 5 player is worth 1700 and the number 22 and 23 are worth 1540. So we still lost in hindsight.

Also interesting that we had terrence williams rated higher than escobar...but went with escobar presumably because te's run out in the 2nd while there was depth at receiver. Thats the entire problem with how jerry is drafting. Hes saying "how do we get value as long as we fill our needs somewhere down the road in the draft". But you have to be willing to not fill a need suffer for a year if you can get that tremendous of a value as floyd was at 18. Got to look at it for the long haul. Thats what garret and ciskowski understand.

What really doesnt make sense is passing on everett dawkins twice in the 5th and 6th despite a 3rd round grade. We must really really really feel set at dt. I dont get ehat the hell theyre thnking quite frankly.

The rest of the draft makes sense. Randle in the 5th was rated close to jefferson but we really needed a rb and a 4th te might not make the 53. Then by the 6th we drafted for need with holloman over a few higher rated players (not too big a deal). Also makes sense we tried to trade back into the 7th for dc jefferson give how high he was on our board. Again note we didnt try to trade back into the 7th for dawkins even though he was rated even Higher in the board. Why do they feel sooooo comfortable at dt?....

 

[speedkilz88]

This just confirms what we already knew.

Jerrys thought process was "we really need an interior olineman and we only have two players left (pugh and frederick) with more than a 5th round grade. We dont need a dlineman and my coach is telling me that floyd would probably start as a rotation player and that he projects as a one tech in our scheme which is not a very important position. 18 is too rich for either guard so well trade down and take one there and pick up whatever we can pick up."

Basically if they took floyd they wouldnt get an interior olineman. But I vehemently disagree with that strategy. When the number 5 player drops to you at 18, you take him no matter what. And this isnt just a player the cowboys liked, everyone liked him! I havent been this mad at jerry jones since the roy williams trade.

And to those saying it worked out because of terrence williams, by the draft value chart the number 5 player is worth 1700 and the number 22 and 23 are worth 1540. So we still lost in hindsight.

Also interesting that we had terrence williams rated higher than escobar...but went with escobar presumably because te's run out in the 2nd while there was depth at receiver. Thats the entire problem with how jerry is drafting. Hes saying "how do we get value as long as we fill our needs somewhere down the road in the draft". But you have to be willing to not fill a need suffer for a year if you can get that tremendous of a value as floyd was at 18. Got to look at it for the long haul. Thats what garret and ciskowski understand.

What really doesnt make sense is passing on everett dawkins twice in the 5th and 6th despite a 3rd round grade. We must really really really feel set at dt. I dont get ehat the hell theyre thnking quite frankly.

The rest of the draft makes sense. Randle in the 5th was rated close to jefferson but we really needed a rb and a 4th te might not make the 53. Then by the 6th we drafted for need with holloman over a few higher rated players (not too big a deal). Also makes sense we tried to trade back into the 7th for dc jefferson give how high he was on our board. Again note we didnt try to trade back into the 7th for dawkins even though he was rated even Higher in the board. Why do they feel sooooo comfortable at dt?....

Going into this draft if you had picks 22 and 23 you could have traded into the top 5. A lot of teams wanted out. This was not a top heavy draft of blue chip players.

Williams and Escobar were so close together they had similar grades possibly exact grades. It's pretty common practice for teams to take the bigger need player off the same tier.

After reading the last two paragraphs you wouldn't happen to be bipolar would you? They contradict each other.

If you bothered to listen to Kiffin on draft night and after he said that he had a room full of DL and very few LBs. This was after the Randle pick and he said he told them to get him some LBs.

 

[TheRomoSexual]

This just confirms what we already knew.

Jerrys thought process was "we really need an interior olineman and we only have two players left (pugh and frederick) with more than a 5th round grade. We dont need a dlineman and my coach is telling me that floyd would probably start as a rotation player and that he projects as a one tech in our scheme which is not a very important position. 18 is too rich for either guard so well trade down and take one there and pick up whatever we can pick up."

Basically if they took floyd they wouldnt get an interior olineman. But I vehemently disagree with that strategy. When the number 5 player drops to you at 18, you take him no matter what. And this isnt just a player the cowboys liked, everyone liked him! I havent been this mad at jerry jones since the roy williams trade.

And to those saying it worked out because of terrence williams, by the draft value chart the number 5 player is worth 1700 and the number 22 and 23 are worth 1540. So we still lost in hindsight.

Also interesting that we had terrence williams rated higher than escobar...but went with escobar presumably because te's run out in the 2nd while there was depth at receiver. Thats the entire problem with how jerry is drafting. Hes saying "how do we get value as long as we fill our needs somewhere down the road in the draft". But you have to be willing to not fill a need suffer for a year if you can get that tremendous of a value as floyd was at 18. Got to look at it for the long haul. Thats what garret and ciskowski understand.

What really doesnt make sense is passing on everett dawkins twice in the 5th and 6th despite a 3rd round grade. We must really really really feel set at dt. I dont get ehat the hell theyre thnking quite frankly.

The rest of the draft makes sense. Randle in the 5th was rated close to jefferson but we really needed a rb and a 4th te might not make the 53. Then by the 6th we drafted for need with holloman over a few higher rated players (not too big a deal). Also makes sense we tried to trade back into the 7th for dc jefferson give how high he was on our board. Again note we didnt try to trade back into the 7th for dawkins even though he was rated even Higher in the board. Why do they feel sooooo comfortable at dt?....

If "everyone liked" Floyd, why did he drop like a rock?

Also, I think you are reading the rankings too literally. Jerry has said they place players into "groups," and within that group they will go BPA at a need position. Further, they obviously had a sense Williams would last until 74, whereas Escobar would have been snatched up well before then (my guess is the 49ers would have drafted Escobar over Vance). In short, you know you're reaching when you are criticizing a drafting strategy that worked.

 

[DFWJC]

And to those saying it worked out because of terrence williams, by the draft value chart the number 5 player is worth 1700 and the number 22 and 23 are worth 1540. So we still lost in hindsight.

....

They were not 22 and 23 anyway.
They were 4th and 5th in the second round--which equates to at best the 36th and 37th and at worst more like the mid 40s (we only had 20 2nd rounders on our board).

There was a gap between the top 18 on our board. Anything after that was a second round player and not "#19".


But I se what we did and I can live with it. No choice.

Oakland passing on Floyd was the only huge surprise. If you look at every other team before dallas that passed on him, they had a very rational reason based on need and quality of player available.
Part of it was that, regardless of what some here are trying to say, he was not a 3-4 NT, but a 4-3 DT. That means all 3-4 teams would pass right away.
Then you had all the teams needing pass rush help and oline help, and next thing you know he has dropped to Dallas.

 

[jterrell]

This just confirms what we already knew.

Jerrys thought process was "we really need an interior olineman and we only have two players left (pugh and frederick) with more than a 5th round grade. We dont need a dlineman and my coach is telling me that floyd would probably start as a rotation player and that he projects as a one tech in our scheme which is not a very important position. 18 is too rich for either guard so well trade down and take one there and pick up whatever we can pick up."

Basically if they took floyd they wouldnt get an interior olineman. But I vehemently disagree with that strategy. When the number 5 player drops to you at 18, you take him no matter what. And this isnt just a player the cowboys liked, everyone liked him! I havent been this mad at jerry jones since the roy williams trade.

And to those saying it worked out because of terrence williams, by the draft value chart the number 5 player is worth 1700 and the number 22 and 23 are worth 1540. So we still lost in hindsight.

Also interesting that we had terrence williams rated higher than escobar...but went with escobar presumably because te's run out in the 2nd while there was depth at receiver. Thats the entire problem with how jerry is drafting. Hes saying "how do we get value as long as we fill our needs somewhere down the road in the draft". But you have to be willing to not fill a need suffer for a year if you can get that tremendous of a value as floyd was at 18. Got to look at it for the long haul. Thats what garret and ciskowski understand.

What really doesnt make sense is passing on everett dawkins twice in the 5th and 6th despite a 3rd round grade. We must really really really feel set at dt. I dont get ehat the hell theyre thnking quite frankly.

The rest of the draft makes sense. Randle in the 5th was rated close to jefferson but we really needed a rb and a 4th te might not make the 53. Then by the 6th we drafted for need with holloman over a few higher rated players (not too big a deal). Also makes sense we tried to trade back into the 7th for dc jefferson give how high he was on our board. Again note we didnt try to trade back into the 7th for dawkins even though he was rated even Higher in the board. Why do they feel sooooo comfortable at dt?....

Not mad at you being mad.
Heck, I was at the time.

Am a bit mad about your logic here.

And this isnt just a player the cowboys liked, everyone liked him!

Except he didn't get drafted until pick 23. That's 22 people who passed him. So did everyone like him all that much???

If my 5th favorite crayon color is red do I really like red a lot? Everything is relative there. I didn;t hear a single sole suggest this draft was deep at the top or in elite talent. Floyd was basically a proven guy with no warts. Is he really a special player? A guy with 4.5 career sacks.

And again you suggest EVERYONE liked him but there were articles right BEFORE the draft suggesting he was a media creation. That he didn't really impress in game play at Florida. That he had less impact on Florida games than Matt Elam did. That his biggest asset was playing hard every play yet he still made few overall big plays.

 

[jterrell]

They were not 22 and 23 anyway.
They were 4th and 5th in the second round--which equates to at best the 36th and 37th and at worst more like the mid 40s (we only had 20 2nd rounders on our board).

There was a gap between the top 18 on our board. Anything after that was a second round player and not "#19".


But I se what we did and I can live with it. No choice.

Oakland passing on Floyd was the only huge surprise. If you look at every other team before dallas that passed on him, they had a very rational reason based on need and quality of player available.
Part of it was that, regardless of what some here are trying to say, he was not a 3-4 NT, but a 4-3 DT. That means all 3-4 teams would pass right away.
Then you had all the teams needing pass rush help and oline help, and next thing you know he has dropped to Dallas.

Actually he is a prototype 3-4 DE.
People just don't like using high picks on those guys.

 

[jterrell]

They were not 22 and 23 anyway.
They were 4th and 5th in the second round--which equates to at best the 36th and 37th and at worst more like the mid 40s (we only had 20 2nd rounders on our board).

There was a gap between the top 18 on our board. Anything after that was a second round player and not "#19".


But I se what we did and I can live with it. No choice.

Oakland passing on Floyd was the only huge surprise. If you look at every other team before dallas that passed on him, they had a very rational reason based on need and quality of player available.
Part of it was that, regardless of what some here are trying to say, he was not a 3-4 NT, but a 4-3 DT. That means all 3-4 teams would pass right away.
Then you had all the teams needing pass rush help and oline help, and next thing you know he has dropped to Dallas.

They were 22 and 23 on their board.
Gap has nothing to do with a numerical ranking. You don't insert 13 empty spaces simply because they move to r2. Dallas liked what they liked and ranked how they ranked.

That is simple math. The next player on their board is the next player on their board.

Easy to say they only had 18 first rounders but how many first rounders did they consider elite players? Possibly only 1 or 2 in the big OT. After that the r1 guys could well have been a mass of guys they liked but didn't love.

Drafting a guy you rated r2 at 31 is hardly a stretch. Especially if you only rate 18 players r1.

 

[DFWJC]

Actually he is a prototype 3-4 DE.
People just don't like using high picks on those guys.

Floyd as a 3-4 DE?
Have to admit that I've never once heard anyone project him there.
Though that is not any further out there than some of those recent claims here that he is a 3-4 NT.

His fit is as a 4-3 DT. And that is what he was drafted by Minn. to play.

 

[jterrell]

Floyd as a 3-4 DE?
Have to admit that I've never once heard anyone project him there.
Though that is not any further out there than some of those recent claims here that he is a 3-4 NT.

His fit is as a 4-3 DT. And that is what he was drafted by Minn. to play.

Floyd is 6'3" and 297. The actual prototype is probably 6'4" and 290 Justin Smith.

But of all the DL positions Floyd may be best as a 3-4 DE. He is strong enough to handle OTs and hold the point of contact. He is quick enough to string out running plays to the sideline. What he isn't is a natural pass rusher. That makes less a 4-3 DE or Quick DT guy.

He is probably a solid player at SDE, 3T, 1T or 3-4 DE. But he has shorter arms than you'd like as a pass rusher or n inside run blocker and less explosion than someone lie LaRoi Glover or Jay Ratliff so is questionable as a pure 3T.

When a guy falls in the draft there are inevitably reasons. Dallas told you they thought he was only a 1T in their system.

Floyd was a late 1st, early 2nd in mocks after the Super Bowl. He rose based on his pass rush skill being vastly overstated and folks ignoring his 31" arms. But also because other possible draftees just had larger warts. Bad interviews, injury concerns, poor combines. Whatever the case Floyd didn't really rise so much as others came back to the pack. This was a very soft draft at the top.


If you forgot everything you knew about the players and I said:
He is 6'3", 297 pounds, plays like a man on fire, has only 4.5 career sacks but provides stellar overall support of plays.
Where would you project him?
For me that's a 3-4 DE.
Marcus Spears had 19 sacks in the SEC for LSU. Floyd had 4.5 at Florida....

 

[DFWJC]

They were 22 and 23 on their board.
Gap has nothing to do with a numerical ranking. You don't insert 13 empty spaces simply because they move to r2.

Sure you do!

That is why the gap was there. Otherwise, why bother?

If you are saying they thought the distance between 14 and 15 was the same as between 18 and 19, sorry, you are wrong.

The gap says TRADE DOWN if you get past those first 18 guys and are still in the meat of the 1st round.
It's really straight forward.

This diversion was about draft chart value. That chart in no way was saying the 22nd ranked player should be taken at pick 22.
That's all I'm saying.
The perfect fit would have been early in round 2...right where they had their 22nd ranked player on the team chart (4th pick on the round 2 chart).

Look, this is a diversion now.
I don't really want to burn time discussing whether or not a gap on their chart has meaning or not. It's is extremely clear to me that it does, but if it's not to you, we would be just wasting out time.

No big deal.

As for Floyd "falling". Well, other than Oakland and maybe one other team before 18, he really did not fall if you look at who was picking and what was available. Many thought Oakland would take him real early, after that, there was real chance for him to fall 10+ spots.

 

[Cowboys22]

The perfect fit would have been early in round 2...right where they had their 22nd ranked player on the team chart (4th pick on the round 2 chart).

No, the prefect fit was right where they took him. The 31st player taken gets a 5 year rookie deal while a player taken in the 2nd get a 4 year deal. That extra year on a rookie deal is huge and the team even mentioned that fact. They decided they didn't want to risk losing him and they wanted him under contract for 5 years instead of 4. That's why 31 was the best place to take Frederick.

 

[DFWJC]

No, the prefect fit was right where they took him. The 31st player taken gets a 5 year rookie deal while a player taken in the 2nd get a 4 year deal. That extra year on a rookie deal is huge and the team even mentioned that fact. They decided they didn't want to risk losing him and they wanted him under contract for 5 years instead of 4. That's why 31 was the best place to take Frederick.

Yeah...I was just referring to how they were rated on the chart. I've never once had an issue with where they took Freddy based on the Cowboy chart and given how the draft was going.

That does not mean I think they made the right move in Rd 1 or beyond, but at least I undertstand where they were coming from based on their in-house player ratings. According to their assessments, it looks like draft day went well.

And yes, that 5th year can be valuable if they convince Frederick's agent to sign a 5 year deal.

 

[Cowboys22]

Yeah...I was just referring to how they were rated on the chart. I've never once had an issue with where they took Freddy based on the Cowboy chart and given how the draft was going.

That does not mean I think they made the right move in Rd 1 or beyond, but at least I undertstand where they were coming from based on their in-house player ratings. According to their assessments, it looks like draft day went well.

And yes, that 5th year can be valuable if they convince Frederick's agent to sign a 5 year deal.

There's no convincing needed. First round players get 5 year deals per the new CBA.

 

[SMCowboy]

They were not 22 and 23 anyway.
They were 4th and 5th in the second round--which equates to at best the 36th and 37th and at worst more like the mid 40s (we only had 20 2nd rounders on our board).

There was a gap between the top 18 on our board. Anything after that was a second round player and not "#19".


But I se what we did and I can live with it. No choice.

Oakland passing on Floyd was the only huge surprise. If you look at every other team before dallas that passed on him, they had a very rational reason based on need and quality of player available.
Part of it was that, regardless of what some here are trying to say, he was not a 3-4 NT, but a 4-3 DT. That means all 3-4 teams would pass right away.
Then you had all the teams needing pass rush help and oline help, and next thing you know he has dropped to Dallas.

He likely is an ideal fit at a 4-3 DT in Minnesota's defense. Which is built around Big Strong Run Stuffing DT's, they have never asked or gotten much pass rush from there DT's. Not all 4-3 Teams want the same type of DT's.

 

[jterrell]

Sure you do!

That is why the gap was there. Otherwise, why bother?

If you are saying they thought the distance between 14 and 15 was the same as between 18 and 19, sorry, you are wrong.

The gap says TRADE DOWN if you get past those first 18 guys and are still in the meat of the 1st round.
It's really straight forward.

This diversion was about draft chart value. That chart in no way was saying the 22nd ranked player should be taken at pick 22.
That's all I'm saying.
The perfect fit would have been early in round 2...right where they had their 22nd ranked player on the team chart (4th pick on the round 2 chart).

Look, this is a diversion now.
I don't really want to burn time discussing whether or not a gap on their chart has meaning or not. It's is extremely clear to me that it does, but if it's not to you, we would be just wasting out time.

No big deal.

As for Floyd "falling". Well, other than Oakland and maybe one other team before 18, he really did not fall if you look at who was picking and what was available. Many thought Oakland would take him real early, after that, there was real chance for him to fall 10+ spots.

The gap was in player grade. Using some systems that's 5.0 and 4.9. Others may be 88 verses 87.

What we know it isn't is based on 31 players per round as you suggest. That's simply not true.

Players get graded and you may have multiple guys with the same grade and it may be decided then to stack based on position. But a guy can be graded out a round lower and be very close in evaluation.

I agree there was a different grade for player 18 than player 19. But there was almost certainly a different grade for Floyd and player 1 as well. Going 18 to 19 is dropping a round by whatever grade standard they are using but it isn't jumping off a cliff.

Another way to examine the fallacy of your argument. There were 18 picks in round 1. You suggest adding 13 players or essentially doubling the quality of round 1 guys for a guy listed round 2? That's insane. As any trade chart details the last player in round 1 is only marginally more valuable than the top player in round 2.

As to Floyd falling again... hogwash and excuses. Many teams wanted to move down and any team could have come and gotten Floyd was he really coveted. In fact there was a move up to our spot and the team took a Safety instead. Truth is Floyd was ONLY the 6th DL to be drafted.