BTB: Cowboys 2013 Draft Board Leaked... All Seven Rounds (Link Post #21) *Merge*

[Alexander]

I'm sorry, but if my defensive coordinator says a player is not a fit for his system, I'm not drafting that players. It's the same reason we didn't draft a quarterback even though several fell on our board.

Sorry, but if I have an entire scouting staff building a board for an entire year and then go completely against it based on what a coordinator says when I am on the clock, then I am doing it wrong.

Floyd, and even the QBs should not have been clogging up the board to begin with if there is no chance of drafting them.

He should have been removed for his "short arms" and "lack of quick twitch" just like the character risks (Elam, Alec Ogletree), injured (Lattimore, Jarvis Jones, Keenan Allen) and unknown (Larry Warford, Terran Armstead) were if there was no intention of drafting them, especially when they drop from the top of your board. Other tackles, like Jesse Williams, Johnathan Hankins and John Jenkins, also not scheme fits, were not even on the board. So explain why Jenkins was so high?

 

[DFWJC]

I'm sorry, but if my defensive coordinator says a player is not a fit for his system, I'm not drafting that players. It's the same reason we didn't draft a quarterback even though several fell on our board.

He said no such thing TRS.
I wish you guys would quit making that stuff up.

Someone says somethig unsubstantiated and next thing you know it becomes fact in some people's eyes.
No way that player would be ranked 5th on our board and "not be a fit for his system".
That's crazy talk.

What most likely happened is that Jerry said some thing like "we really need oline help and the way the draft is unfolding, we may not get it. Would you (Kiffin) get by okay without Floyd (which he can) if we can get a 2 for 1 deal for the 18th pick instead?"

That is not the same AT ALL as Kiffin saying "don't take this guy, he doesn't fit". I know he's been near the top of our board for weeks or months now, but I think right now on draft day at the last second I have decided to speak up. " :laugh2:

Good grief man. Do you see how crazy that sounds?:

 

[Alexander]

He said no such thing TRS.
I wish you guys would quit making that stuff up.

Someone says somethig unsubstantiated and next thing you know it becomes fact in some people's eyes.
No way that player would be ranked 5th on our board and "not be a fit for his system".
That's crazy talk.

It is a little of both. Direct quote from Jones:

“We feel like defensive line is a position of strength for us. In our system, we would probably put a premium on a quick-twitch potential three-technique. We [graded] him as not that, but that he certainly may be capable of getting there. That’s a case where are switch from a 3-4, he was obviously a nose tackle that had a lot of promise there at nose tackle. He’s an outstanding football player. … Again, I think you got to put our decision-making with a real focus on doing something with the interior of our offensive line."

So again, the question becomes why he was not removed like the other clear NTs?

We were determined to address the OL. And it sounds to me the rest is just rationalization why we passed again. At the end of the day, we still did not follow the board, which usually means you drafted for need.

 

[jterrell]

Matt Elam wasn't even on their board. How stupid is that?

apparently off-field related.

 

[speedkilz88]

So again, the question becomes why he was not removed like the other clear NTs?

Because he can play 1 technique in Kiffin's defense and Jerry even said that he has potential to develop into a 3 technique. (which is developing pass rush moves) But Kiffin doesn't value the 1 technique like he does the 3 technique position. Broaddus has mentioned on talkin cowboys that they would have taken Sheldon Richardson at 18 because they did see him as a pass rushing 3 technique. The NTs that were taking off the board are the big blob two down players.

 

[Idgit]

Sorry, but if I have an entire scouting staff building a board for an entire year and then go completely against it based on what a coordinator says when I am on the clock, then I am doing it wrong.

Floyd, and even the QBs should not have been clogging up the board to begin with if there is no chance of drafting them.

He should have been removed for his "short arms" and "lack of quick twitch" just like the character risks (Elam, Alec Ogletree), injured (Lattimore, Jarvis Jones, Keenan Allen) and unknown (Larry Warford, Terran Armstead) were if there was no intention of drafting them, especially when they drop from the top of your board. Other tackles, like Jesse Williams, Johnathan Hankins and John Jenkins, also not scheme fits, were not even on the board. So explain why Jenkins was so high?

I agree. It was pretty clearly a debate between the ranking of the player and the need of the team. We drafted for need in the first round. I don't like drafting for need, we reached as a result. There's a chance it might end up being the right move, but it's a lower-probability gamble, and the pick, on draft day, was a disappointment.

That said, I like the player, a lot, and I like that we were at least able to pick up a pick in the process, and I like a lot the guy we got with that pick. It's not going to be the end of the world, either way, and if Frederick ends up a two-contract starter, it'll be ok with me no matter what happens with Floyd and Williams.

 

[jterrell]

Yeah, except it's not like Quincy whatsoever, and any comparison is completely absurd. The way the draft was unfolding, I'd bet good money that Fred would be drafted within five to ten picks of 31.

Not only that the scenario is pretty hilarious given QCar was the best QB available when he was taken. He wasn't good but he was by far the best QB available. And plenty of guys who couldn't ever start a single game were drafted in the next 5 rounds.

Jerry's problem was pinning the franchise on this guy when he should have been a 3 year back up who followed the Romo pattern or the McGee pattern.

 

[DFWJC]

It is a little of both. Direct quote from Jones:



So again, the question becomes why he was not removed like the other clear NTs?

We were determined to address the OL. And it sounds to me the rest is just rationalization why we passed again. At the end of the day, we still did not follow the board, which usually means you drafted for need.

Because no way he was a clear NT.
Jerry wanted oline help, plain and simple. They had Floyd rated as the 5th best prospect (in our 4-3 system, otherwsie why is rated there?) but they did not feel the position he played was one of immediate need, so they traded down.

Nobody was listing Floyd as a pure 3-4 NT going into the draft.
He was a 4-3 DT who could play NT in a pinch. Minnesota was a 4-3 team, so they grabbed for that very reason.

 

[xwalker]

He said no such thing TRS.
I wish you guys would quit making that stuff up.

Someone says somethig unsubstantiated and next thing you know it becomes fact in some people's eyes.
No way that player would be ranked 5th on our board and "not be a fit for his system".
That's crazy talk.

What most likely happened is that Jerry said some thing like "we really need oline help and the way the draft is unfolding, we may not get it. Would you (Kiffin) get by okay without Floyd (which he can) if we can get a 2 for 1 deal for the 18th pick instead?"

That is not the same AT ALL as Kiffin saying "don't take this guy, he doesn't fit". I know he's been near the top of our board for weeks or months now, but I think right now on draft day at the last second I have decided to speak up. "

Good grief man. Do you see how crazy that sounds?:

I think that there is some truth to what each of you are saying.

It was reported by the Cowboys own media guys that either Kiffin or Marinelli came into the draft room and said that he was not a big fan of Floyd.

Having said the above, it was probably not that cut and dried.

It does appear that the scouts owned and created the draft board and just took some input from the coaches. Just because Floyd was #5 on the board does not indicate that everyone was in agreement. It appears that the scouts vetoed Kiffin/Marinelli when they created the board. Jerry then vetoed the scouts and went with Kiffin/Marinelli over the scouts.

Keep in mind that when the scouts were watching the players live at college games, the D-Coordinator was still RR. The scouts had to reevaluate their grades on defensive players after the change in D-Coordinators.

 

[speedkilz88]

I think that there is some truth to what each of you are saying.

It was reported by the Cowboys own media guys that either Kiffin or Marinelli came into the draft room and said that he was not a big fan of Floyd.

Having said the above, it was probably not that cut and dried.

It does appear that the scouts owned and created the draft board and just took some input from the coaches. Just because Floyd was #5 on the board does not indicate that everyone was in agreement. It appears that the scouts vetoed Kiffin/Marinelli when they created the board. Jerry then vetoed the scouts and went with Kiffin/Marinelli over the scouts.

Keep in mind that when the scouts were watching the players live at college games, the D-Coordinator was still RR. The scouts had to reevaluate their grades on defensive players after the change in D-Coordinators.

Broaddus has actually said that Ciskowski doesn't let them change their grades. They did that stuff with Lacewell I believe and that's what caused a lot of problems.

 

[jterrell]

It is a little of both. Direct quote from Jones:



So again, the question becomes why he was not removed like the other clear NTs?

We were determined to address the OL. And it sounds to me the rest is just rationalization why we passed again. At the end of the day, we still did not follow the board, which usually means you drafted for need.

The only real problem with your take is that we didn't simply draft Pugh at 18. It would have been a huge reach but the Giants did do exactly that one pick later.

We chose to trade down over stay and take Floyd. They were clear that Floyd was the guy if they stayed. They didn't stay. Not staying isn't reaching. It is moving because you don't like the choices. They moved to find value and need intersect.

That's exactly what you SHOULD do.

If we had stayed and taken Floyd he would have backed up Jason Hatcher for a year at least. What a waste of pick 18. We would have reached at 47 for another OL but one we weren't sure could start. Regardless of what some tell you the DALLAS COWBOYS didn't have a guy at 47 they felt was a day 1 walk in OL starter.

Can you imagine the sheer insanity that would ensue had Dallas stayed at 18 and taken Floyd then selected Terron Armstead at 47 and neither guy started as a rookie???

 

[Alexander]

Because he can play 1 technique in Kiffin's defense and Jerry even said that he has potential to develop into a 3 technique. (which is developing pass rush moves) But Kiffin doesn't value the 1 technique like he does the 3 technique position. Broaddus has mentioned on talkin cowboys that they would have taken Sheldon Richardson at 18 because they did see him as a pass rushing 3 technique. The NTs that were taking off the board are the big blob two down players.

That is all fine, but why on earth would you have a player in the top ten on your board that would be based on "potential"? Somewhere, the process broke down. I would understand if he was downgraded to lower in the tier if they felt that way. But he was at the top of their board.

 

[CowboyMcCoy]

apparently off-field related.

I'm curious.. for what?

 

[Nation]

I'm curious.. for what?

I don't know for sure that it was character-related issues that kept him off the board (size comes to mind more than character) but he did have two alcohol-related incidents at Florida.

 

[Alexander]

The only real problem with your take is that we didn't simply draft Pugh at 18. It would have been a huge reach but the Giants did do exactly that one pick later.

The need was in the interior, specifically at guard and/or center. Was Pugh regarded as an instant center/guard starter? If not, he is just like Floyd was. They "liked" him, but not that much. They drafted for need there--they wanted a player that would start from day one.

We chose to trade down over stay and take Floyd. They were clear that Floyd was the guy if they stayed. They didn't stay. Not staying isn't reaching. It is moving because you don't like the choices. They moved to find value and need intersect.

The point is that you are talking out of both sides of your mouth if you preach about board integrity, yet pass on the fifth rated player on your board if the need does not coincide just right. All in all, need was more of a driver in why we traded down.

That's exactly what you SHOULD do.

And they still did not go where value and need intersected. They chose need when they picked Frederick out of fear that someone else would get him before their next choice. They passed on other higher ranked players again. That is exactly what you SHOULD NOT do if the whole goal is to get the best players.

If we had stayed and taken Floyd he would have backed up Jason Hatcher for a year at least. What a waste of pick 18. We would have reached at 47 for another OL but one we weren't sure could start. Regardless of what some tell you the DALLAS COWBOYS didn't have a guy at 47 they felt was a day 1 walk in OL starter.

I do not have an issue with the choice of Frederick in the least. I have a problem with having a board where the fifth ranked player is a player who you think cannot start right away for your team. The condensed version of what we have in a draft board almost dictates you stack that board with value/need accordingly.

Can you imagine the sheer insanity that would ensue had Dallas stayed at 18 and taken Floyd then selected Terron Armstead at 47 and neither guy started as a rookie???

So the point of a draft is to get instant starters or the best players for your franchise? If Floyd was ranked fifth, they obviously viewed him as a difference making player.

 

[jterrell]

I think that there is some truth to what each of you are saying.

It was reported by the Cowboys own media guys that either Kiffin or Marinelli came into the draft room and said that he was not a big fan of Floyd.

Having said the above, it was probably not that cut and dried.

It does appear that the scouts owned and created the draft board and just took some input from the coaches. Just because Floyd was #5 on the board does not indicate that everyone was in agreement. It appears that the scouts vetoed Kiffin/Marinelli when they created the board. Jerry then vetoed the scouts and went with Kiffin/Marinelli over the scouts.

Keep in mind that when the scouts were watching the players live at college games, the D-Coordinator was still RR. The scouts had to reevaluate their grades on defensive players after the change in D-Coordinators.

One of the radio shows right after the draft was pretty clear that Marinelli said Floyd wouldn't start when they asked if they should draft him. They asked Kiffin what he thought and he said great player but a back up at the 1T year 1.

Garrett wanted to just stay and stick to the board. Tom C wanted Floyd BADLY. The Def Coaches did not want him badly.... Jerry voted for the punt essentially by trading down.

I think the crew was on board with a trade down but the trade fell through and they had to a far lesser offer.

End of the day everyone was happy with the results once they got Williams in round 3. Garrett got a couple pass catching weapons for his offense. Tom C saw the team add 5 or 6 guys he had rated top 3 rounds. Kiffin and Marinelli LIKELY get to sign Spencer long term and added some LBs plus just quick twitch athletic freaks galore in BW Webb, Wilcox, Magee and Holloman.

Sometimes you make a bad decision that works out. I believe that happened here. Most NFL teams would prefer Floyd over Frederick plus Williams I'd GUESS... but it is INSANE to argue that Floyd over Frederick and Williams is better for the Dallas Cowboys at this point.

Floyd had 4.5 sacks over his college career.
That just doesn't compare to the type of pressure player Marinelli wants. He calls his entire DL 'rushmen' for cripessake. So we no longer play DL we play 4 rushmen.

 

[Alexander]

It appears that the scouts vetoed Kiffin/Marinelli when they created the board. Jerry then vetoed the scouts and went with Kiffin/Marinelli over the scouts.

Keep in mind that when the scouts were watching the players live at college games, the D-Coordinator was still RR. The scouts had to reevaluate their grades on defensive players after the change in D-Coordinators.

To me, it seems like more of a miscommunication about what was wanted along the DL than anything else. We eliminated true 3-4 type nose tackles. That tells me at least the 4-3 was a thought. But then you see true 3-4 OLB prospects like Mingo rated highly.

It still does not explain how or why Floyd was that high if he was not considered a fit or starting material.

 

[speedkilz88]

To me, it seems like more of a miscommunication about what was wanted along the DL than anything else. We eliminated true 3-4 type nose tackles. That tells me at least the 4-3 was a thought. But then you see true 3-4 OLB prospects like Mingo rated highly.

It still does not explain how or why Floyd was that high if he was not considered a fit or starting material.

Mingo's a DE in a 4-3. They want pass rushers.

 

[visionary]

One of the radio shows right after the draft was pretty clear that Marinelli said Floyd wouldn't start when they asked if they should draft him. They asked Kiffin what he thought and he said great player but a back up at the 1T year 1.

Garrett wanted to just stay and stick to the board. Tom C wanted Floyd BADLY. The Def Coaches did not want him badly.... Jerry voted for the punt essentially by trading down.

I think the crew was on board with a trade down but the trade fell through and they had to a far lesser offer.

End of the day everyone was happy with the results once they got Williams in round 3. Garrett got a couple pass catching weapons for his offense. Tom C saw the team add 5 or 6 guys he had rated top 3 rounds. Kiffin and Marinelli LIKELY get to sign Spencer long term and added some LBs plus just quick twitch athletic freaks galore in BW Webb, Wilcox, Magee and Holloman.

Sometimes you make a bad decision that works out. I believe that happened here. Most NFL teams would prefer Floyd over Frederick plus Williams I'd GUESS... but it is INSANE to argue that Floyd over Frederick and Williams is better for the Dallas Cowboys at this point.

Floyd had 4.5 sacks over his college career.
That just doesn't compare to the type of pressure player Marinelli wants. He calls his entire DL 'rushmen' for cripessake. So we no longer play DL we play 4 rushmen.

good post JT
i am satisfied with frederick and williams in place of floyd

as an aside, any info on who the 'other team' was that backed out of the trade and what the parameters of the trade were?

 

[Idgit]

To me, it seems like more of a miscommunication about what was wanted along the DL than anything else. We eliminated true 3-4 type nose tackles. That tells me at least the 4-3 was a thought. But then you see true 3-4 OLB prospects like Mingo rated highly.

It still does not explain how or why Floyd was that high if he was not considered a fit or starting material.

I agree. I think they just hadn't anticipated the scenario where Floyd fell and they really didn't have one of their hopefuls sitting there for them. It seems unbelievable to me, given all the scenarios they must have walked through prior to the draft that they hadn't decided in advance what they'd do if any one of the top 18 guys slipped, but I don't think you can look at the video of the discussion in that room and conclude this was something they'd anticipated in advance.

As I've said, I have less problem with the way it worked out than I do that it could happen there in round one.