How is this possible?

[TellerMorrow34]

People really need to get a life; some of you have far too much time on your hands.

Noted. I'll file that away.

 

[firehawk350]

Only for reading your posts and believe you're anything more than a typical sports fan. I don't care what any judge tries to say now to justify the name of a sports franchise. It is an offensive term, it has always been an offensive term, just like any of the others, and no amount of time, reports, promises, theories, are going to change the fact that it was never intended as a term of honor.

It's no better than ******, ****, spook, or any of the other racist terms i've seen thrown around in my life about one race or another. Anyone who believes that the person who came up with that phrase did so as a way to honor Indians is a fool.

It's clear where you stand on that subject.

Glad to see you've come to terms with the fact that you are horribly close-minded and blissfully and willfully ignorant. I feel no conpunction on completely ignoring everything you have to say now.

 

[Hostile]

Just because you studied etymology means you suddenly know the origins of every english word? Right dude.

I never said I know the origin of every word. I said it was part of my studies as was History, which was my minor.

http://anthropology.si.edu/goddard/Commander.pdf

Somebody else spent considerably more time and provided that nicely sourced paper. Here's a particularly enlightening passage and essentially debunks your entire argument far more efficiently then you ever could.

And again....

Yeah and I've seen other studies that point to the opposite spectrum. What makes your study right and all others that disagree with it wrong? Exactly, nothing does.

The fact that some people refute the origin of the word does not change the fact that it is a pejorative and all resource materials that you bother to look it up will state that fact. It is referred to as a "slur" or as "offensive slang" or as an "insult."

Go figure.

If you were referring to the letter written by Samuel Smith in 1699, Ives Goddard refuted that pretty headily.

I'm referring to an old tin type photograph in a History book I had to do some research on for a paper for a History class that showed two trappers holding up scalps that they had for sale. The idea that the word is saccharine is laughable.

Refer to above.

You too.

Sounds like you are personally offended by it. But don't project your personal affronties onto another group of people. The fact are the facts, it wasn't a racist term originally and it isn't viewed that way now. Get the hell over it

Facts are facts, the term has always been racist in origin. Every dictionary will tell you this. Every etymological study of the origin of the word will explain that it is a pejorative, not a term of endearment. Get the hell over it.

One more thing, I will speak my mind on this forum as long as I stay within the guidelines here, and I will do it whether it pisses you off or not. So shut the hell up, and don't tell me what to project.

Ever...

As is your "debate". You've gotten the short stick of our debates before, just stop it.

Pfft.

Not once have you ever bested me in a debate. That's a vivid imagination. We've had some good debates, but the idea that you own me is ludicrous.

Especially about football.

Why would somebody waste an entire day on dealing with an inconsequential issue? That's probably why nobody has taken you up on your offer. Even if I did accept it, who would pay for my plane ticket to Tucson? Would YOU yourself 20ish hours travelling to say a single word to somebody you never met or will never meet? You know the answer, even if you want to make excuses.

This is a cop out. Do you really think the only people I have made this offer to have to fly here to make it happen? Get real.

You lived in Sierra Vista. You don't need a plane ticket from Sierra Vista to Tucson. I've put this challenge out to loudmouths like you for a dozen years. Many of them right here in Tucson. None of you big brave tough talking blowhards will put your money where your mouth is. It's no wonder the accent color on your uniforms is a yellow stripe. It should be up the back instead of the side of pants. It's not a perfect world though.

All of this proves nothing.

Of course not, when your head is in the sand.

Would a racist care if somebody is just "part" something.

I have no idea, ask a racist.

No.

Or answer it yourself. I could give a damn.

Who the hell cares what you buy? Since when was the world accountable to your convictions and beliefs? Get off your high-horse Hos.

Yeah, it's a "high horse" attitude as opposed to good old common sense rational thought.

Old Indians scalped people, it's a fact. FIGHT (see the word fight) songs perpetuate violence as a means for motivation for the home team and demoralization of the opposing team (how about the reference to blitzkreig commonly used in today's football vernacular, are you opposed to that?). Scalping invokes the idea of a particularly brutal tactic of some Native American tribesmen during combat.

Indians scalped people? I did not know that.[/sarcasm]

Thank you for avoiding the obvious answers to focus on the inane.

Maybe the name change should be to the Washington Ostrich. Seems to fit.

Maybe because of the overly brutal imagery of scalping??? We don't have a mascot BTW. If you are referring to Chief Zee, he isn't endorsed or employed by the Commanders.

You really don't know much about etymology do you? Yet you presume to educate me?

Did you know that "mascot" has more than one meaning? Your association with a physical mascot at a game is one such meaning.

For the record it is from the French language and it means a person, animal, or object believed to bring good luck. There is symbolism attached to mascots. The Dallas mascot is the Cowboy, not Rowdy the irritant. Rowdy is merely a symbol of the actual mascot, the old west Cowboy. Chief Zee is a symbol of the actual mascot, an Indian. Uga is a symbol of the actual Georgia Bulldogs mascot, a bulldog. Mascots exist whether there is an animated version on the sidelines or in the stands or not.

I have to wonder if this will sink in or go right over your head.

 

[firehawk350]

I never said I know the origin of every word. I said it was part of my studies as was History, which was my minor.

Yeah and I've seen other studies that point to the opposite spectrum. What makes your study right and all others that disagree with it wrong? Exactly, nothing does.

Do you care to offer a STUDY done on this? Or just going to speak in the aggregate?

The fact that some people refute the origin of the word does not change the fact that it is a pejorative and all resource materials that you bother to look it up will state that fact. It is referred to as a "slur" or as "offensive slang" or as an "insult."

Go figure.

Except I clearly just provided a resource that proved the other way. For those keeping track.

Hos provided resources - 0
Firehawk provided resources - 1

I could also link to two independent polls that show that a vast majority of American Indians (or Native Americans) disagree with you. Do you want that?

I'm referring to an old tin type photograph in a History book I had to do some research on for a paper for a History class that showed two trappers holding up scalps that they had for sale. The idea that the word is saccharine is laughable.

Well, if you read the freakin' report I offered you, you could see that this study found the origin of the word in the 1750s, before there were photography.

Facts are facts, the term has always been racist in origin. Every dictionary will tell you this. Every etymological study of the origin of the word will explain that it is a pejorative, not a term of endearment. Get the hell over it.

Facts aren't facts because you say so. You have a serious God complex going on here Hos, have you considered the possibility you are delusional?

One more thing, I will speak my mind on this forum as long as I stay within the guidelines here, and I will do it whether it pisses you off or not. So shut the hell up, and don't tell me what to project.

Ever...

Hahahahaha! What the hell is this? Somebody forget to take their midol? Weak.

Not once have you ever bested me in a debate. That's a vivid imagination. We've had some good debates, but the idea that you own me is ludicrous.

Especially about football.

Have you paid your bet yet then? You know, the one you lost to me...

This is a cop out. Do you really think the only people I have made this offer to have to fly here to make it happen? Get real.

You lived in Sierra Vista. You don't need a plane ticket from Sierra Vista to Tucson. I've put this challenge out to loudmouths like you for a dozen years. Many of them right here in Tucson. None of you big brave tough talking blowhards will put your money where your mouth is. It's no wonder the accent color on your uniforms is a yellow stripe. It should be up the back instead of the side of pants. It's not a perfect world though.

I lived in Sierra Vista (past tense is key). During that time, I didn't receive such an offer from you. Had I, I probably still would have refused given it would be a monumental waste of time and resources. My uncle (by marriage) is half Native American though, I'll go and call him a Commander if it would make you feel better though. I doubt he'll care given he's a fan of the team, but whatever.

Of course not, when your head is in the sand.

I have no idea, ask a racist. Or answer it yourself. I could give a damn.

Yeah, it's a "high horse" attitude as opposed to good old common sense rational thought.

Indians scalped people? I did not know that.[/sarcasm]

Thank you for avoiding the obvious answers to focus on the inane.

Maybe the name change should be to the Washington Ostrich. Seems to fit.

Weak. Maybe you are flopping around because you forgot your tampax in the car?

You really don't know much about etymology do you? Yet you presume to educate me?

Did you know that "mascot" has more than one meaning? Your association with a physical mascot at a game is one such meaning.

Sorry if I mistook your meaning. It does have that meaning and perhaps you should have been more clear instead of blaming it on me. Logo or emblem would have been more concise, but I'm guessing an English major like you doesn't care about that, it's beneath you. You just use terms that are ambiguous in nature so you can "presume" to teach the rest of us.

For the record it is from the French language and it means a person, animal, or object believed to bring good luck. There is symbolism attached to mascots. The Dallas mascot is the Cowboy, not Rowdy the irritant. Rowdy is merely a symbol of the actual mascot, the old west Cowboy. Chief Zee is a symbol of the actual mascot, an Indian. Uga is a symbol of the actual Georgia Bulldogs mascot, a bulldog. Mascots exist whether there is an animated version on the sidelines or in the stands or not.

I have to wonder if this will sink in or go right over your head.

Yeah, that doesn't sound like you are on your high horse at all. Presuming superiority to somebody you've never met... Stay classy.

 

[superpunk]

This is certainly an important issue that requires immediate attention.

Not.

 

[AbeBeta]

Weak. Maybe you are flopping around because you forgot your tampax in the car?

 

[adamknite]

The first uses of the term red
as a racial label that Shoemaker
(1997: 627) found are from 1725. In
that year a Taensa chief talking to a
French Capuchin priest in Mobile recounted
an origin story about a “white
man,” a “red man,” and a “black man”
(Rowland and Sanders 1927–1932, 2:
485–486), and a Chickasaw chief
meeting with the English Commissioner
for Indian Affairs at Savanna
Town referred to “White people” and
“red people” (George Chicken in
Mereness 1916: 169). As Shoemaker
(1997: 628) documents, this use of
“red” was soon adopted in both
French and English and was conventional
by the 1750s. Although Europeans
sometimes used such expressions
among themselves, however,
they remained aware of the fact that
this was originally and particularly a
Native American usage

Shoemaker did some good research... lets see what he had to say about the term....

The final message, Shoemaker suggested, is that "even if the Indians were the first to use it, the origin has no relationship to later use. What happened at the beginning doesn't justify it today."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/02/AR2005100201139_pf.html

 

[Hostile]

Do you care to offer a STUDY done on this? Or just going to speak in the aggregate?

Except I clearly just provided a resource that proved the other way. For those keeping track.

Hos provided resources - 0
Firehawk provided resources - 1

Your responses that are not worth wasting my time on are being deleted. I have no inclination to piss in the general direction of the measly fires you are trying to light with your insults. Maybe some other time.

First of all "studies" are often slanted to the opinion of the author. Do you really think that I care that you have offered a "study?" I can promise you, I don't care. I did a "study" on the subject for a school paper. I have a feeling you would not give credence to my "study" any more than I give credence to the one you provided.

Show me where your "study" provided is accepted as the gospel truth and the be all, end all of the debate. I won't hold my breath.

How about I provide you with some quotes showing the usage of the word "Commander" taken from actual recorded documents that you can go out and buy? I'll even provide you with the links to the actual books.

This is from the attending physician of the Wounded Knee Massacre in South Dakota. The author's name was John Vance Lauderdale and this can be found in his book "Wounded River: The Civil War Letters of John Vance Lauderdale, M.D.

"Every Commander must be killed from off the face of the plains before we can be free from their molestations. They are of no earthly good and the sooner they are swept from the land the better for civilization ...I do not think they can be turned and made good law abiding citizens any more than coyotes can be used for shepherd dogs."

Such complimentary use of the word. There is no way that can be construed as racial, or in any way a slur right?



How about this quote from American Holocaust by David Stannard attributed to an English Colonist reporting back to England on the suitability of the land for use.

"The Commander Indians are wild beasts, and unreasonable creatures, or ...brutish savages, which by reason of their godles ignorance, and blasphemous Idolatrie, are worse than those beasts which are of most wilde and savage nature...(they are) incredibly rude, they worship the divell, offer their young children in sacrifice unto him, wander up and downe like beasts, and in manners and conditions, differ very little from beasts."

I even kept the misspelled words for you. His comments are clearly not derogatory right?

I could also link to two independent polls that show that a vast majority of American Indians (or Native Americans) disagree with you. Do you want that?

I have seen polls that suggest 80% agree with me. Polls are worthless.

Well, if you read the freakin' report I offered you, you could see that this study found the origin of the word in the 1750s, before there were photography.

I have no doubt the word was used before photography. I never maintained that the first use of the word was in that picture. Do you wish to maintain that Indians were not scalped by trappers prior to 1750?

That would be foolhardy indeed.

Can you discount the uses of the word that I provided above? Of course not. Gee this is easy.

Facts aren't facts because you say so. You have a serious God complex going on here Hos, have you considered the possibility you are delusional?

I wonder how many different dictionaries I can find online? Let's go for the top 4 well known online dictionaries who take their contents from long established printed sources.


Websters

CommanderNoun

1. Offensive terms for Native Americans.



Dictionary.com

red⋅skin

–noun Slang: Often Disparaging and Offensive. a North American Indian.



Cambridge

Commander
noun [C]
OFFENSIVE OLD-FASHIONED FOR a Native American


Oxford
Commander


• noun [SIZE=-1]dated[/SIZE] or [SIZE=-1]offensive[/SIZE] an American Indian.




By your reckoning every one of those respected sources don't know what they are talking about.


That's quite a leap.

Have you paid your bet yet then? You know, the one you lost to me...

I lost a bet to you? I highly doubt this. Please provide a link to this bet.

Oh, and a bet is not a debate. Sorry for the reality check.

I lived in Sierra Vista (past tense is key). During that time, I didn't receive such an offer from you. Had I, I probably still would have refused given it would be a monumental waste of time and resources. My uncle (by marriage) is half Native American though, I'll go and call him a Commander if it would make you feel better though. I doubt he'll care given he's a fan of the team, but whatever.

Thank you for proving my point. I wonder if you even realized that you just did.

Oh, and I know it is past tense. I have not forgotten that you moved back to the East Coast.

Sorry if I mistook your meaning. It does have that meaning and perhaps you should have been more clear instead of blaming it on me. Logo or emblem would have been more concise, but I'm guessing an English major like you doesn't care about that, it's beneath you. You just use terms that are ambiguous in nature so you can "presume" to teach the rest of us.

Or perhaps you could have tried to reason through what I was saying instead of jumping to a rash and incorrect conclusion.

Yeah, that doesn't sound like you are on your high horse at all. Presuming superiority to somebody you've never met... Stay classy.

Oh my gosh. Are you really that uber sensitive to being proven wrong?

It was a group of examples for further explanation, not a view from a high horse.

 

[Hostile]

Shoemaker did some good research... lets see what he had to say about the term....

The final message, Shoemaker suggested, is that "even if the Indians were the first to use it, the origin has no relationship to later use. What happened at the beginning doesn't justify it today."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/02/AR2005100201139_pf.html

Bam.

Right between the eyes.

 

[random Cs]

What are you bitter about? Doing the right thing?

Yes, the right thing gets on my nerves sometimes. We're not all boy scouts.

I didn't think there was anything wrong with Bullets. I don't think there is anything wrong with Chiefs. Nothing wrong with Braves. I cannot say the same about Commanders because I know the etymology of the word and it is offensive.

You didn't, neither did I. Someone did and they applied pressure. Now we're stuck with the Wizards.

I am nowhere near a PC person. But right is right. I just think given the fact your founder was an avowed racist that you need to step away from racist implications. Don't tell me differently, I know the History of every team in the NFL too well.

I will tell you differently, because that's how this works.

The fact that George Marshall was a racist man does not change anything. The man was born in the 1800's. It does not change my opinion on the team or the man. My grandmother did not approve when she met my first girlfriend who was Hispanic. I don't hold that against her, God rest her soul.

I know all about the claims of the name being a tribute to Sonny Dietz. I don't buy it. I know the original lyrics to Hail to the Commanders. It's like the swastika in Germany, or a hangman's noose in the south. Not good ideas. The name is a slur. Plain and simple. Get away from the racist past. Leave it behind.

The team was not named the Braves or the Commanders to be offensive to Native Americans.

Commander is obviously a racial term, was used as a slur, but its not the same as others. It is not the swastika, that is banned forever in Germany. It is not plain and simple. Most people of Native decent aren't offended by the term, some of them take pride in being a Commander. There is a Commander Entertainment Magazine for Native people for example.

I would not play for the Commanders because of their racist History. I would have given up my dreams of playing in the NFL over playing there. Long live Ernie Davis.

You made it all the way to Eagle Scout didn't you. I tried it once and quit.

 

[Clove]

Things are offensive when the insults aren't equally distributed. For example, if we had teams called the Texas Crackers, Jacksonville White Trash, and Tampa Dumb *** Mullet Wearing Camaro Driving Honkies then I expect that things the presence of other offensive names wouldn't be problematic.

:laugh2: I almost pee'd on myself reading this. I'm sure he gets the point. It's always funny when it's not directed at you or something personal in your life.

If it's offensive to a nation of people, then it's offensive. If you're too shallow to come up with over a zillion other names other than something others think of as racial, then you're a dumb loser anyways and should have your own island, we can keep all the dumb ***** there.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

I could also link to two independent polls that show that a vast majority of American Indians (or Native Americans) disagree with you. Do you want that?

A vast majority? So you're telling me you have a poll available that the people doing the poll actually asked every single American Indian on the face of the Earth in order to get that vast majority?

Again, like the reports where Penn State, or whatever university, polled a certain number of people is not accurate to the entire group.

I doubt, very seriously, you, or anyone for that matter, can come up with a report, poll, study, or anything that can definatively prove that they actually asked the opinion of every single Native American on the planet about their feelings of the word.

If you think those studies actually do that then you're a bigger fool then you've already proven yourself to be with this. The fact that you actually believe that word is anything other than an offensive, slang, put down, simply because your favorite football team continues to carry the name, is sad.

We have an Native American that works here with us and I asked him how he felt about the word Commander and did he believe it was a term of honor or a put down. He said that it absolutely was offensive, and is offensive to all in his family and he didn't know any Native Americans who didn't find it offensive.

It's just as bad to this man, and his family and friends, as ****** is to a black man.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

Most people of Native decent aren't offended by the term, some of them take pride in being a Commander.

Again with a vast majority statement. How many of the Native Americans on this planet did you bother to ask this question in order to turn it into a fact?

 

[Hoofbite]

You clearly don't know the entomology of the word Hos. Unless you have another source other than the one I provided. One that is peer-reviewed and academically accepted of course. Otherwise, it's you vs. the findings of a federally commissioned study and a University of Penn poll.

George Preston Marshall was a contempible racist, but that doesn't have anything to do with Commanders (unless you can find an example of him hating Native Americans of course). After all, didn't he hire at least one?

Do you really think that Penn poll holds that much weight? Their methods were a joke, the question itself was a joke and the fact that anyone would reference it is a joke.

If you're looking for peer-reviewed, go look for the peer-reviews on that Penn poll. If you're looking for academically accepted, go look for acceptance outside of Penn.

That poll was constructed in a piss poor fashion and tells absolutely nothing.

 

[Hostile]

Yes, the right thing gets on my nerves sometimes. We're not all boy scouts.
You didn't, neither did I. Someone did and they applied pressure. Now we're stuck with the Wizards.

Nothing wrong with Wizards IMO. I don't get why it is such a big deal.

I would love for someone to apply pressure for the Cardinals to change their mascot. We don't have Cardinals in Arizona.

Not that I would really care, because I hate that team.

I will tell you differently, because that's how this works.

The fact that George Marshall was a racist man does not change anything. The man was born in the 1800's. It does not change my opinion on the team or the man. My grandmother did not approve when she met my first girlfriend who was Hispanic. I don't hold that against her, God rest her soul.

I respectfully disagree. The team should do whatever it can to distance itself from that imagery.

The team was not named the Braves or the Commanders to be offensive to Native Americans.

I've already indicated I don't consider Braves to be offensive. Whether it is intended to be offensive or not, it has offensive origins. At one time the New Mexico State University yearbook was called the swastika. It was not meant to be offensive either.

Commander is obviously a racial term, was used as a slur, but its not the same as others. It is not the swastika, that is banned forever in Germany. It is not plain and simple. Most people of Native decent aren't offended by the term, some of them take pride in being a Commander. There is a Commander Entertainment Magazine for Native people for example.

I've seen studies that say 80% of them are offended and other studies that say 9% of them are offended. You can pretty much pick any number and plug it in.

You made it all the way to Eagle Scout didn't you. I tried it once and quit.

I was never in the Boy Scouts, but I did volunteer as Scoutmaster and 9 of the 13 boys I "coached" made it to Eagle Scout and 2 of them to Life Scout.

I personally will accept your intended insult of scouting as a compliment.

 

[random Cs]

Nothing wrong with Wizards IMO. I don't get why it is such a big deal.

Don't get me started. The jerseys are ugly, the name is stupid and they are in the same division as the Orlando Magic.

Bullets was a great name.

I was never in the Boy Scouts, but I did volunteer as Scoutmaster and 9 of the 13 boys I "coached" made it to Eagle Scout and 2 of them to Life Scout.

I personally will accept your intended insult of scouting as a compliment.

Good. As I said, the right thing annoys me sometimes.

Again with a vast majority statement. How many of the Native Americans on this planet did you bother to ask this question in order to turn it into a fact?

I gave you an example.

There is a Commander Entertainment Magazine.

"How many more years must we uphold the negative representation perpetuated by the current non-native educational system? Why do we breath and speak the same hate for color and race? Why do we no longer accept the teachings from our ancestors? We at Commander magazine agree that the word 'Commander' is offensive to some of our people. However we no longer wish to promote the colonially religious educational adaptation of our blood, our race and our skin as a negative stereotype. We must learn something new in this age of ignorance, we must learn to think and live for ourselves! Commander magazine will never change or be ashamed of our red race or our red skin; we will always respect our women and our culture by never letting our teachings die."

 

[khiladi]

I think there are other issues that need to be worked out for the Native Americans before they worry about changing a Pro-teams name. High-rates of illiteracy, gambling and alcoholism, drugs and the marginalization of various tribes in the States are bigger problems than what the Commanders call themselves. Further, while the etymology of a word may be 'racist', it does not mean the etymology of the word has any bearing on how the word is understood today. There are countless cases in any language, where the etymology of a word may have negative connotations, but usage today has no relevance.If the Native Americans care, then so be it. But seriously... Talk about getting your priorities straight.

 

[interestedobserver]

If it was offensive, if would have been taken down by now. I could be wrong, but I don't really hear the American Indians uproaring over it. Or are they?

They've been protesting the Braves and the Tomahawk chop, the Indians, the Commanders, and a bunch of other teams in the college ranks. Do you think they'd have kept the name if it were the blackskins and had a logo of Buckwheat?

 

[AbeBeta]

They've been protesting the Braves and the Tomahawk chop, the Indians, the Commanders, and a bunch of other teams in the college ranks. Do you think they'd have kept the name if it were the blackskins and had a logo of Buckwheat?

I expect that many of the folks here would think that was O-TAY!

 

[superpunk]

ITT: abe suggests that a large portion of Cowboyzone has derogatory feelings towards black people.

Time to shut it down.