How is this possible?

[PullMyFinger]

A zipperhead is someone of Asian descent. It was coined in the Korean war.

For a Korean? Ok that makes sense I guess.

 

[BAT]

For a Korean? Ok that makes sense I guess.

It was b/c when Korean soldiers were shot in the head, their skulls were split like an open zipper, hence the term.

 

[BAT]

Using the word as a slur makes it a slur. I could take a random word, say banana, and walk in a rough area saying, Hey Bananas! Or Waddup Bananas! and it probably would not be received so well.

On the flip side, if I am at a game cheering, Go Commanders! I am clearly talking about the football team. If you are saying, Commanders Suck! you are clearly talking about the football team, not insulting Native Americans.

There is an obvious difference. You could not create the Dallas Monkeys with a black man as your mascot claiming it was done to honor African Americans. Julian Bond would not create a mascot for the Dallas N_____'s to honor African Americans.

Your position that Commander = other racial slurs is not proven so easily. Many have failed to do so and linguists have mixed results on the origins of the word.

This country, even racist white men like George Marshall, respected the Native American as a warrior. Sports teams are named so in respect of that.

Our Indian head logo was partially created by Walter "Blackie" Wetzel. (ironically, Blackie was his Blackfoot appointed name)

You can read about him here: http://www.helenair.com/articles/2003/11/03/top/a01110303_01.txt

So you are claiming that the slur is actually a way for you to honor the Native Americans? I am sure that they feel very honored by the negative stereotypes you portray in your song too, "swamp em ... scalp em ..." etc. I am sure that pleases them to no end.


Like Hos has challenged, go to any Reservation and walk up to any Native and call them Commander to their face, let's see how honored they are then. Please video tape it for posterity.

 

[random Cs]

I'll go into any area in the world that you want me to and say "waddup bananas." I doubt very much it will cause me trouble. Some people might ask what it means, but I am pretty sure I can answer something that is not offensive and it will be fine.

I doubt very much you can do the same. Of course it's a slur. At least you can admit it. Something many Commanders fans cannot do.

We are bitter. The PC crowd already ruined our basketball team.

So you are claiming that the slur is actually a way for you to honor the Native Americans? I am sure that they feel very honored by the negative stereotypes you portray in your song too, "swamp em ... scalp em ..." etc. I am sure that pleases them to no end.


Like Hos has challenged, go to any Reservation and walk up to any Native and call them Commander to their face, let's see how honored they are then. Please video tape it for posterity.

Yes, if you read the article I posted, the man whose job it was to represent the Native American voice to our government created our logo out of respect. I am taking his opinion over yours.

And no I won't go call anyone a Commander because to me the word means a football team. Just like I don't go calling people Yankees because the word has nearly lost meaning besides the baseball team.

 

[Hoovie]

Most of those can be spit at somebody with equal vitrol, but for whatever reason (and I'm sure with a little bit of searching, you can find it), the n word is perceived much worse than any other.

I'd like to hear that reason...

I'll eagerly await your (or anyone elses) reason for this. Why is it that one obviously offensive racial slur is worse than another obviously offense racial slur. Why is the N word special where these others aren't? Is this simply an American bias, or does it hold true the world over?

Please, Please enlighten me...

 

[Hostile]

We are bitter. The PC crowd already ruined our basketball team.

What are you bitter about? Doing the right thing?

I didn't think there was anything wrong with Bullets. I don't think there is anything wrong with Chiefs. Nothing wrong with Braves. I cannot say the same about Commanders because I know the etymology of the word and it is offensive.

I am nowhere near a PC person. But right is right. I just think given the fact your founder was an avowed racist that you need to step away from racist implications. Don't tell me differently, I know the History of every team in the NFL too well. I know all about the claims of the name being a tribute to Sonny Dietz. I don't buy it. I know the original lyrics to Hail to the Commanders. It's like the swastika in Germany, or a hangman's noose in the south. Not good ideas. The name is a slur. Plain and simple. Get away from the racist past. Leave it behind.

I would not play for the Commanders because of their racist History. I would have given up my dreams of playing in the NFL over playing there. Long live Ernie Davis.

 

[firehawk350]

I'd like to hear that reason...

I'll eagerly await your (or anyone elses) reason for this. Why is it that one obviously offensive racial slur is worse than another obviously offense racial slur. Why is the N word special where these others aren't? Is this simply an American bias, or does it hold true the world over?

Please, Please enlighten me...

Why is the N-word worse than any other racial slur? First off, and I imagine I don't have to enlighten you on this, white and black people in this country obviously have a contenious past. Moreso than white people and Asians per se (I know about the Japanese "holding" camps during WWII and the way the railroad and gold mining industries treated Asians but overall, the black-white relationships were far more sour).

Now, I'm not a black person so I'm going off of what I hear, but throughout the years, white racists typically used the term when perpetrating the worst injustices on black people. They used it moreso than any other during that time. So thus, the term has attached itself to the worst of injustices and therefore is perceived as being the most hateful since it was used extremely hatefully in the past. That's why it's perceived the worst.

What confuses me is why black people would refer to themselves as that... I've heard the arguments that it's a term of endearment among black people, but I don't buy that. If it's THAT demeaning for somebody else to say, it should be demeaning for everybody.

 

[firehawk350]

Good point. But I doubt that the Commanders organization was using it in that original sense -- Cooper died an awfully long time ago.

While words evolve, it's unclear at this point how it was originally intended in the 1930s. I have read a story saying that the management at the time originally conferred with Native American chiefs who gave their blessing but as that can't be confirmed, it's only hearsay.

An independent poll conducted by the Annenberg Public Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania confirmed that 91% of Native Americans did not find the term or logo racist or weren't offended by it.

 

[firehawk350]

What are you bitter about? Doing the right thing?

I didn't think there was anything wrong with Bullets. I don't think there is anything wrong with Chiefs. Nothing wrong with Braves. I cannot say the same about Commanders because I know the etymology of the word and it is offensive.

I am nowhere near a PC person. But right is right. I just think given the fact your founder was an avowed racist that you need to step away from racist implications. Don't tell me differently, I know the History of every team in the NFL too well. I know all about the claims of the name being a tribute to Sonny Dietz. I don't buy it. I know the original lyrics to Hail to the Commanders. It's like the swastika in Germany, or a hangman's noose in the south. Not good ideas. The name is a slur. Plain and simple. Get away from the racist past. Leave it behind.

I would not play for the Commanders because of their racist History. I would have given up my dreams of playing in the NFL over playing there. Long live Ernie Davis.

You clearly don't know the entomology of the word Hos. Unless you have another source other than the one I provided. One that is peer-reviewed and academically accepted of course. Otherwise, it's you vs. the findings of a federally commissioned study and a University of Penn poll.

George Preston Marshall was a contempible racist, but that doesn't have anything to do with Commanders (unless you can find an example of him hating Native Americans of course). After all, didn't he hire at least one?

 

[Hostile]

You clearly don't know the entomology of the word Hos. Unless you have another source other than the one I provided. One that is peer-reviewed and academically accepted of course. Otherwise, it's you vs. the findings of a federally commissioned study and a University of Penn poll.

George Preston Marshall was a contempible racist, but that doesn't have anything to do with Commanders (unless you can find an example of him hating Native Americans of course). After all, didn't he hire at least one?

I don't know the insect study of the word? You're right, it never dawned on me to study insects and their relationship to the word. Faux pas aside...

I only studied English and etymology for my degrees and had a minor in History. Yeah, what could I possibly know about word origins? Good call.

The term Commanders was used by trappers who sold Indian scalps. They sold beaver skins, wolf skins, bear skins, and some of them sold red skins. If you don't think that is offensive then I can't help you. I know that some debate whether that practice actually happened. Evidence of it exists in books I have actually read in Historical museums.

The term was also used as a pejorative by common folk of the day. It was usually preceded by the word damned, as in damned Commanders.

I will not deny the word has evolved. It has. The fact that so many do not find it offensive is evidence of that. It is without a doubt the most offensive mascot name in this country. My wife's High School is the same mascot. I find it every bit as offensive as your favorite professional team and I am glad I did not go there. In fact, I would not have gone there. I have two nephews (twins) on that team who are two time state football champions and will go for a third title this year. I am proud of them, but I do not support the mascot name and they know it.

You don't get it. That's fine. Live in your cocoon. It doesn't erase the fact that any dictionary definition of the word will call it either a "slur" or "offensive slang." There is no spin control away from that. The idea that it is some kind of honor is laughable.

To this day not one of you Commander fans who defend the word will take me up on my offer to drive you to an Indian Reservation so you can call someone that name. Why not if it is not a pejorative? You know the answer even if you want to make excuses.

As to your George Preston Marshall question. Long before Sonny "Lone Star" Dietz was hired by Marshall the team was called Boston Braves. Look it up. When they moved across Boston to Fenway Park, rather than be called the Boston Football Red Sox, he stuck with the word red, but he wanted to keep the Indian logo he already had so he changed it to skins.

Dietz is not a Native American name. At best he was "part Indian."

Marshall fired Dietz one year after the move to Fenway. Quite a tribute to a man he fired that he would keep that mascot name and then move the team to Washington and keep it there too.

I'm sorry, but I do not buy that tribute to Dietz story at all.

Even your fight song's original words perpetuated the stereotypes and racism. Here you go for your entertainment.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Hail to the Commanders![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Hail Victory![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Braves on the Warpath![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Fight for old Dixie![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Run or pass and score -- we want a lot more![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Scalp 'em, swamp 'em -- We will take 'em big score[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Read 'em, weep 'em, touchdown - we want heap more[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Fight on, Fight on -- 'Till you have won[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Sons of Wash-ing-ton. Rah!, Rah!, Rah!

[/FONT]

Fight for old dixie, scalp 'em, swamp, we want heap more. Yeah, those are noble lines not perpetuations of a stereotype at all.[/sarcasm]

Why were the words changed? You know why.

Would you suddenly hate the team if they did change the mascot? I doubt it.
​

 

[dogunwo]

My take: if there is not a fundamental reason or abiding conviction why I shouldn't use a particular term, then I'm not going to use it.

Wow. This summarizes exactly how I feel. For those who don't feel it is offended and people should get over it, how bout we always refer to your female family members as "b-words" and you just get over it and stop being so sensitive. Give me a break. Just because you are not offended, doesnt mean someone else isn't.

 

[dogunwo]

Get over it dude. This political correct, oversensitive, race card bullcrap is getting old. Everyone wants to be sensitive about something and it's just getting old.

I don't know you, but I would bet you are a white guy who has never experienced any racism. Sure the race card gets thrown out unnecessarily sometimes, but don't be foolish enough to think that it doesn't exist. And in some places, its prevalent.

Also just because this country has made great strides in the last 20-30 years doesnt just wipe away the previous HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of years. Getting over it is not 'easy' as you seem to think it is.

 

[firehawk350]

I don't know the insect study of the word? You're right, it never dawned on me to study insects and their relationship to the word. Faux pas aside...

I only studied English and etymology for my degrees and had a minor in History. Yeah, what could I possibly know about word origins? Good call.

Just because you studied etymology means you suddenly know the origins of every english word? Right dude.

http://anthropology.si.edu/goddard/Commander.pdf

Somebody else spent considerably more time and provided that nicely sourced paper. Here's a particularly enlightening passage and essentially debunks your entire argument far more efficiently then you ever could.

One need not accept Harjo’s
unfounded claim that the word Commander
“had its origins in the practice of presenting
bloody red skins and scalps
as proof of Indian kill for bounty payments”
2 to accept that many find the
word objectionable in current use. But
the actual origin of the word is entirely
benign and reflects more positive
aspects of relations between Indians
and whites. It emerged at a specific
time in history among a small group of
men linked by joint activities that provided
the context that brought it forth.
Before its documented history can be
traced, however, the false history
given for it in standard reference
books must be expunged.

And again....

The first uses of the term red
as a racial label that Shoemaker
(1997: 627) found are from 1725. In
that year a Taensa chief talking to a
French Capuchin priest in Mobile recounted
an origin story about a “white
man,” a “red man,” and a “black man”
(Rowland and Sanders 1927–1932, 2:
485–486), and a Chickasaw chief
meeting with the English Commissioner
for Indian Affairs at Savanna
Town referred to “White people” and
“red people” (George Chicken in
Mereness 1916: 169). As Shoemaker
(1997: 628) documents, this use of
“red” was soon adopted in both
French and English and was conventional
by the 1750s. Although Europeans
sometimes used such expressions
among themselves, however,
they remained aware of the fact that
this was originally and particularly a
Native American usage

The term Commanders was used by trappers who sold Indian scalps. They sold beaver skins, wolf skins, bear skins, and some of them sold red skins. If you don't think that is offensive then I can't help you. I know that some debate whether that practice actually happened. Evidence of it exists in books I have actually read in Historical museums.

If you were referring to the letter written by Samuel Smith in 1699, Ives Goddard refuted that pretty headily.

The term was also used as a pejorative by common folk of the day. It was usually preceded by the word damned, as in damned Commanders.

Refer to above.

I will not deny the word has evolved. It has. The fact that so many do not find it offensive is evidence of that. It is without a doubt the most offensive mascot name in this country. My wife's High School is the same mascot. I find it every bit as offensive as your favorite professional team and I am glad I did not go there. In fact, I would not have gone there. I have two nephews (twins) on that team who are two time state football champions and will go for a third title this year. I am proud of them, but I do not support the mascot name and they know it.

Sounds like you are personally offended by it. But don't project your personal affronties onto another group of people. The fact are the facts, it wasn't a racist term originally and it isn't viewed that way now. Get the hell over it

You don't get it. That's fine. Live in your cocoon. It doesn't erase the fact that any dictionary definition of the word will call it either a "slur" or "offensive slang." There is no spin control away from that. The idea that it is some kind of honor is laughable.

As is your "debate". You've gotten the short stick of our debates before, just stop it.

To this day not one of you Commander fans who defend the word will take me up on my offer to drive you to an Indian Reservation so you can call someone that name. Why not if it is not a pejorative? You know the answer even if you want to make excuses.

Why would somebody waste an entire day on dealing with an inconsequential issue? That's probably why nobody has taken you up on your offer. Even if I did accept it, who would pay for my plane ticket to Tucson? Would YOU yourself 20ish hours travelling to say a single word to somebody you never met or will never meet? You know the answer, even if you want to make excuses.

As to your George Preston Marshall question. Long before Sonny "Lone Star" Dietz was hired by Marshall the team was called Boston Braves. Look it up. When they moved across Boston to Fenway Park, rather than be called the Boston Football Red Sox, he stuck with the word red, but he wanted to keep the Indian logo he already had so he changed it to skins.

All of this proves nothing.

Dietz is not a Native American name. At best he was "part Indian."

Would a racist care if somebody is just "part" something. No.

Marshall fired Dietz one year after the move to Fenway. Quite a tribute to a man he fired that he would keep that mascot name and then move the team to Washington and keep it there too.

I'm sorry, but I do not buy that tribute to Dietz story at all.

Who the hell cares what you buy? Since when was the world accountable to your convictions and beliefs? Get off your high-horse Hos.

Even your fight song's original words perpetuated the stereotypes and racism. Here you go for your entertainment.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Hail to the Commanders![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Hail Victory![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Braves on the Warpath![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Fight for old Dixie![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Run or pass and score -- we want a lot more![/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Scalp 'em, swamp 'em -- We will take 'em big score[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Read 'em, weep 'em, touchdown - we want heap more[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Fight on, Fight on -- 'Till you have won[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Sons of Wash-ing-ton. Rah!, Rah!, Rah![/FONT]​

Fight for old dixie, scalp 'em, swamp, we want heap more. Yeah, those are noble lines not perpetuations of a stereotype at all.[/sarcasm]​

Old Indians scalped people, it's a fact. FIGHT (see the word fight) songs perpetuate violence as a means for motivation for the home team and demoralization of the opposing team (how about the reference to blitzkreig commonly used in today's football vernacular, are you opposed to that?). Scalping invokes the idea of a particularly brutal tactic of some Native American tribesmen during combat.​

Why were the words changed? You know why.

Would you suddenly hate the team if they did change the mascot? I doubt it.​

Maybe because of the overly brutal imagery of scalping??? We don't have a mascot BTW. If you are referring to Chief Zee, he isn't endorsed or employed by the Commanders.

 

[firehawk350]

I don't know you, but I would bet you are a white guy who has never experienced any racism.

Stereotyping much?

 

[TellerMorrow34]

LOL! I love how Firehawk is now turning to telling people to get over it, get off their high horse, and such because he's had so many things shown to prove his thoughts on it wrong.

It's an offensive term. Anyone trying to claim that they came up with that word as a way to honor Indians is foolish. I guess in a few more years people will be trying to claim the word ****** wasn't actually ever a racist term but a term of honor toward black people.

Crazy.

 

[firehawk350]

LOL! I love how Firehawk is now turning to telling people to get over it, get off their high horse, and such because he's had so many things shown to prove his thoughts on it wrong.

It's an offensive term. Anyone trying to claim that they came up with that word as a way to honor Indians is foolish. I guess in a few more years people will be trying to claim the word ****** wasn't actually ever a racist term but a term of honor toward black people.

Crazy.

Weak. At least Hos comes off sounding intelligent. You just sound like you got your lunch money taken away and you're trying to justify it to your friends.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

Weak. At least Hos comes off sounding intelligent. You just sound like you got your lunch money taken away and you're trying to justify it to your friends.

Says the guy whose whinning about Hos proving him wrong. I don't have to say anything. Plenty of people, Hos most notably, has proven your idea wrong. You're simply trying to act like it's not offensive cause it's your favorite team. If it wasn't you wouldn't be saying that. You just don't like that people have a legit complaint about your team being based around a racist thought.

I didn't expect anything less from you though. You've been shut out here so you're going to the name calling, stereotyping, and such that goes along with being a fan of a team that celebrates the exact same type of things.

 

[firehawk350]

Says the guy whose whinning about Hos proving him wrong. I don't have to say anything. Plenty of people, Hos most notably, has proven your idea wrong. You're simply trying to act like it's not offensive cause it's your favorite team. If it wasn't you wouldn't be saying that. You just don't like that people have a legit complaint about your team being based around a racist thought.

I didn't expect anything less from you though. You've been shut out here so you're going to the name calling, stereotyping, and such that goes along with being a fan of a team that celebrates the exact same type of things.

Hos was very well and proven wrong and has yet to respond, so your comments are based on wishful thinking and will be until Hos decides to try to take on a fully sourced document. Only a fool would take a message board poster's word over a fully sourced document that is peer-reviewed and based off a study commissioned by a federal judge. Are you a fool?

 

[TellerMorrow34]

Hos was very well and proven wrong and has yet to respond, so your comments are based on wishful thinking and will be until Hos decides to try to take on a fully sourced document. Only a fool would take a message board poster's word over a fully sourced document that is peer-reviewed and based off a study commissioned by a federal judge. Are you a fool?

Only for reading your posts and believe you're anything more than a typical sports fan. I don't care what any judge tries to say now to justify the name of a sports franchise. It is an offensive term, it has always been an offensive term, just like any of the others, and no amount of time, reports, promises, theories, are going to change the fact that it was never intended as a term of honor.

It's no better than ******, ****, spook, or any of the other racist terms i've seen thrown around in my life about one race or another. Anyone who believes that the person who came up with that phrase did so as a way to honor Indians is a fool.

It's clear where you stand on that subject.

 

[Section446]

People really need to get a life; some of you have far too much time on your hands.