Hurst, Vea or Payne?

[cnuball21]

2nd play - how do you figure? He was a gap away from the poa and was sealed from the play.

:22 Look again he got turned sideways and sealed off from the run. That is not how its done. He didn't squeeze the gap or get penetration.

1:03 He beat the double team with quickness getting to the outside shoulder of the C. That is not anchoring. And all those other plays are when he gets the OL to turn because of said quickness. That did not work against OSU at all.

The rest are him using his quickness which no one is arguing. What you also didn't argue was a single one of the plays that I pointed out.

Once again we're not seeing the same thing, shocker.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Doesn't win off the snap. Stood up and driven.



Hooked and turned out of the hole.



Pancaked by double team



More of the same against PSU. So that the top 3 OL he faced now?

The book on him is lightning quick first step. That is obvious when he gets off the ball and into the OL's pads he can ride up field and sometimes pull through.

The book on him is also that he is light and lacks strength. That is obvious too. When he gets in the OL's pads he doesn't have upper body strength to extend much less ragdoll guys. When OL can punch him he gets rocked, stood up, and spun around way too easily. When he gets hooked he struggles t disengage --upper body-- and to anchor --lower body. He is way too easy to kick out when he should be squeezing the gap.

In the NFL he is not going to be able to blow by guys that easily or routinely. He is going to need to add strength and weight to survive int he trenches.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Once again we're not seeing the same thing, shocker.

I honestly think you don't know what you are looking at. The :22 run is galling to me. OL are taught to drive and turnout to create a lane for the RB. Hurst is parallel to the los going backwards as that is exactly what happened to him and you say he held up against the run.

It's not like I am saying something controversial. Again the book on him is excellent first step but weak at the poa if he doesn't win off the snap.

He's a talented player with upside but lack of strength/size is a very significant risk no matter the training staff. It's not like he looks skinny out there.

 

[cnuball21]

Doesn't win off the snap. Stood up and driven.



Hooked and turned out of the hole.



Pancaked by double team



More of the same against PSU. So that the top 3 OL he faced now?

The book on him is lightning quick first step. That is obvious when he gets off the ball and into the OL's pads he can ride up field and sometimes pull through.

The book on him is also that he is light and lacks strength. That is obvious too. When he gets in the OL's pads he doesn't have upper body strength to extend much less ragdoll guys. When OL can punch him he gets rocked, stood up, and spun around way too easily. When he gets hooked he struggles t disengage --upper body-- and to anchor --lower body. He is way too easy to kick out when he should be squeezing the gap.

In the NFL he is not going to be able to blow by guys that easily or routinely. He is going to need to add strength and weight to survive int he trenches.

I get it, you've made up your mind on this guy. Moving on.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I get it, you've made up your mind on this guy. Moving on.

What you should get is that I can back up my opinion with empirical evidence that you are completely unable to argue. Yu can agree to disagree but there is no reason why people should buy your notion that he is strong at the poa. I showed about a dozen examples of him failing to anchor or worse.

What I see in oyu is that you decide you like a player and then become unable to see any fault in them. I like Hurst and if several other prospects are gone by the time we pick then I am not going ot be mad if he is the pick.

 

[cnuball21]

What you should get is that I can back up my opinion with empirical evidence that you are completely unable to argue. Yu can agree to disagree but there is no reason why people should buy your notion that he is strong at the poa. I showed about a dozen examples of him failing to anchor or worse.

What I see in oyu is that you decide you like a player and then become unable to see any fault in them. I like Hurst and if several other prospects are gone by the time we pick then I am not going ot be mad if he is the pick.

I showed clips where I believe he held his ground against the run and you disagreed in what you saw. I've already given actual statistical numbers to validate my excitement for him as a prospect so if we don't see the same thing on tape then it's the opinion of who's watching. I respect your opinion on what you see, but I disagree.

Every prospect has areas to improve and I'll never claim someone doesn't have faults. Hurst has to add power and a little size, just like a lot of 3T prospects, but I refuse to buy into the generalization that since he's a little over 280 he's ineffective against the run and unable to hold his ground.

 

[DiResta]

i love Vea
thats how i know he goes to Washington

Hurst could be surprising but looks like a 3tech which leaves Collins as ?
Dallas has struggled at 1tech

but until combine these are all guesses
these could rise or fall big time and Dallas may not even value them anywhere near what we do

if its Payne im hoping a real stud is there at lb or safety instead

 

[cnuball21]

i love Vea
thats how i know he goes to Washington

Hurst could be surprising but looks like a 3tech which leaves Collins as ?
Dallas has struggled at 1tech

but until combine these are all guesses
these could rise or fall big time and Dallas may not even value them anywhere near what we do

if its Payne im hoping a real stud is there at lb or safety instead

Love Pea, and yes, Hurst is a 3T.

That would leave Collins as a backup because he hasn't showed the talent to warrant being a starter.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I showed clips where I believe he held his ground against the run and you disagreed in what you saw. I've already given actual statistical numbers to validate my excitement for him as a prospect so if we don't see the same thing on tape then it's the opinion of who's watching. I respect your opinion on what you see, but I disagree.

Every prospect has areas to improve and I'll never claim someone doesn't have faults. Hurst has to add power and a little size, just like a lot of 3T prospects, but I refuse to buy into the generalization that since he's a little over 280 he's ineffective against the run and unable to hold his ground.

I disagreed with you with cause. Most of the examples you gave were of him beating his man with his first step, making the OL turn, and getting into his pads. The two that were no showed him getting sealed while the other DL with a single digit made the play.

You have no made a single response to any one of the plays I isolated.

As for his stats, again, I never said he didn't make plays. He has a very good fist step and motor. I'm not saying he is a bad prospect. What you fail to grasp is that we are trying to rank these prospects relative to each other. Hurst does have his limitations in size and strength. That factors into the evaluation.

Bottomline here is that both Vea and Payne are more pro ready than Hurst because they have the size and strength to play in the trenches and not get washed. Size and strength matters and it matters most inline on the los. Hurst looks like he will be extremely feast or famine until if and when he gets stronger and puts on size.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Love Pea, and yes, Hurst is a 3T.

That would leave Collins as a backup because he hasn't showed the talent to warrant being a starter.

Collins was playing out of position and on a bum foot. He still didn't get pushed around. His rookie season he was outstanding.

 

[cnuball21]

I disagreed with you with cause. Most of the examples you gave were of him beating his man with his first step, making the OL turn, and getting into his pads. The two that were no showed him getting sealed while the other DL with a single digit made the play.

You have no made a single response to any one of the plays I isolated.

As for his stats, again, I never said he didn't make plays. He has a very good fist step and motor. I'm not saying he is a bad prospect. What you fail to grasp is that we are trying to rank these prospects relative to each other. Hurst does have his limitations in size and strength. That factors into the evaluation.

Bottomline here is that both Vea and Payne are more pro ready than Hurst because they have the size and strength to play in the trenches and not get washed. Size and strength matters and it matters most inline on the los. Hurst looks like he will be extremely feast or famine until if and when he gets stronger and puts on size.

I'm done with arguing about the tape on Hurst - again, if we're going to argue about what our eyes see I've said my point and you said yours. Opinions.

My problem with Payne is lack of production.

"At 6-foot-2 and 308 pounds, Payne finished with three career sacks in 35 games played and just five tackles for loss. He recorded an interception, a forced fumble and a fumble recovery for a score."

Sure he's got good size and power, but at some point it has to translate to NFL success. Hurst had more production in 2017 than Payne did in his entire career. That's not my opinion, that's based on numbers.

 

[cnuball21]

Collins was playing out of position and on a bum foot. He still didn't get pushed around. His rookie season he was outstanding.

Collins

Collins was playing out of position and on a bum foot. He still didn't get pushed around. His rookie season he was outstanding.

How so? Are you just looking at his 5 sacks? Half of those came against a backup C for the Browns...

Irving had 1 less tackle in 2017 than Collins had in his rookie year missing almost half the season.

Collins' skill set is best suited as a nickel rusher as he brings very little value against the run.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Collins


How so? Are you just looking at his 5 sacks? Half of those came against a backup C for the Browns...

Irving had 1 less tackle in 2017 than Collins had in his rookie year missing almost half the season.

Collins' skill set is best suited as a nickel rusher as he brings very little value against the run.

Using stats to evaluate a DL's run defense is amusing I guess. Apparently when you decide you don't like someone they can do no right either.

 

[cnuball21]

Using stats to evaluate a DL's run defense is amusing I guess. Apparently when you decide you don't like someone they can do no right either.

I'll play along - in what sense was Collins "outstanding" in his rookie season?

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I'll play along - in what sense was Collins "outstanding" in his rookie season?

Getting penetration, holding his ground against the run, motor, and improving as the year went along. He was a rookie. He had two sacks against Cleveland and then three more down the stretch to end the year. You ability to divide needs help and all sacks count. You don't get to cherry pick ones out.

Then of course he was excellent for the first few games of 2017 before he hurt his foot and was forced to play 1T.

 

[cnuball21]

Getting penetration, holding his ground against the run, motor, and improving as the year went along. He was a rookie. He had two sacks against Cleveland and then three more down the stretch to end the year. You ability to divide needs help and all sacks count. You don't get to cherry pick ones out.

Then of course he was excellent for the first few games of 2017 before he hurt his foot and was forced to play 1T.

He's an ok pass rusher, but I'm trying to figure out why you think he's good against the run. Are we going off your eyeball test or do you have any numbers to back up your claims?

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

He's an ok pass rusher, but I'm trying to figure out why you think he's good against the run. Are we going off your eyeball test or do you have any numbers to back up your claims?

Again, stats are terrible for evaluating DL. Even sacks only gives a glimpse of what they do as a whole.

He was able to extend and push on single blocks and sink a knee and anchor double teams. If you want to call it an "eyeball test" then more power to you. I look at it as technique and strength.

 

[cnuball21]

Again, stats are terrible for evaluating DL. Even sacks only gives a glimpse of what they do as a whole.

He was able to extend and push on single blocks and sink a knee and anchor double teams. If you want to call it an "eyeball test" then more power to you. I look at it as technique and strength.

Got it - so you think he's good based on the eyeball test.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Got it - so you think he's good based on the eyeball test.

I can watch DT play and recognize the techniques, timing, and attributes that correlate with success. Yes, I use my vision to observe but I am not just going by feel which is what "eyeball test" implies.

Again, he has the quickness to get on the OL shoulder, upper body strength to extend and keep his frame clean, the lower body strength to sit down and anchor.

Compare and contrast with your takes which are usually without any basis.

 

[cnuball21]

I can watch DT play and recognize the techniques, timing, and attributes that correlate with success. Yes, I use my vision to observe but I am not just going by feel which is what "eyeball test" implies.

Again, he has the quickness to get on the OL shoulder, upper body strength to extend and keep his frame clean, the lower body strength to sit down and anchor.

Compare and contrast with your takes which are usually without any basis.

AKA - you're going by what you see on tape and no numerical data or factual numbers...I call it the eyeball test but we can call it whatever you want.