I'm getting crucified over Phillips...

[lewpac]

I know, it's unbelievable. But it's true. I can PM you if you want to go there and see it. No flaming, no threats, no cursing, no put downs, nothing of the sort. In fact, like I always do no matter what the subject, I leave plenty of "outs" so I don't come across like I'm a Know-it-All.
The one thing that set this guy off and made him go postal, was after a couple days of going back and forth, he was getting more heated and more pissed with every volley. I could tell he was at the edge. He's like a secondary moderator or something, and I could just see him starting to stutter, veins popping out, etc........He began using CAPITAL letters and exclaimation point all over the place, and dissecting my every word. The poop hit the shoot when I reasonbly summized what I thought he kept saying, and said that he thinks that Wade is the next coming of Lombardi or something.
That did it. He lost it. Like I said something about his mother or something. The threat of banning me came because "I was putting words in his mouth" and apparently that's a triggering device for him. That, he wasn't going to stand for, and if I ever did that again I'd be banned. The real moderator came aboard and put him in his place, defended me, and of course said that I've done nothing even remotely close to being banned.
But screw it, it's a little ditzy site anyway. The moderator is a cool dude but there's only about 10 consistant folks over there, and not half as informed as the folks around here.
Sorry for the rant............

 

[VA Cowboy]

IF a board threatened to ban you for posting your opinion, a reasonable opinion without flame/personal attack then you don't need to be there.

I know a board like that...

 

[skinsscalper]

I know, it's unbelievable. But it's true. I can PM you if you want to go there and see it. No flaming, no threats, no cursing, no put downs, nothing of the sort. In fact, like I always do no matter what the subject, I leave plenty of "outs" so I don't come across like I'm a Know-it-All.
The one thing that set this guy off and made him go postal, was after a couple days of going back and forth, he was getting more heated and more pissed with every volley. I could tell he was at the edge. He's like a secondary moderator or something, and I could just see him starting to stutter, veins popping out, etc........He began using CAPITAL letters and exclaimation point all over the place, and dissecting my every word. The poop hit the shoot when I reasonbly summized what I thought he kept saying, and said that he thinks that Wade is the next coming of Lombardi or something.
That did it. He lost it. Like I said something about his mother or something. The threat of banning me came because "I was putting words in his mouth" and apparently that's a triggering device for him. That, he wasn't going to stand for, and if I ever did that again I'd be banned. The real moderator came aboard and put him in his place, defended me, and of course said that I've done nothing even remotely close to being banned.
But screw it, it's a little ditzy site anyway. The moderator is a cool dude but there's only about 10 consistant folks over there, and not half as informed as the folks around here.
Sorry for the rant............

lewpac I certainly understand your concerns regarding the regime change and the inevitable questions that are going to come with all of this from now until this time next year. The one thing that we have to keep in mind is that Parcells kind of left us high and dry VERY late in the whole process. Jerry was flying almost by the seat of his pants from the word "retire".

In all honesty, I understand the Garret hiring. Dallas was not the only team high on the guy. Just the only team to get permission to speak with him. There are many things unproven about Garrett. No doubt about it. But EVERYONE in EVERY position in life was a first timer at one point. There were many that didn't think Sean Payton was ready for a HC gig, either. In fact, the Rams AND Raiders interviewed him the year before last and opted to pass. Either one of those team's owners would cut their left nut off to have the guy now (unless the Rams are still owned by Georgia Whatsherbutt. In that case she cutout her left ovary).

The one bit of solace that we can bask in is the fact that the guy that led this team to the 3rd highest scoring team in the league last year is still on staff. Don't think for one minute that Jerry will allow this team to be any less effective on the offensive side of the ball as we were last year, regardless of who's ego gets bruised in the process.

As for the Phillips hiring,to be quite honest, it made the most sense. The Cowboys have spent the last two years in the draft and free agency building this into a 3-4 team. The results have been lackluster at best. though that's been more of a fault of coaching than scheme. As much of a Bill supporter as I was (and I was pretty hardcore for a while), that is one aspect that can't be overlooked. Bill took naturally aggressive defenders and turned them into read and react ballers that were scared to death to make even the most minute mistake rather than putting them in a position to play to their strengths. Look at players like Spears and Canty. In college these guys were attacking playmakers that were always around the ball, yet under Parcells they became defensive "blockers". They were taken right out of their game and turned into pedestrian players. It's no secret (now) that when the Cowboys players went to the Pro Bowl, many 3-4 vets asked the Cowboys players "what the hell were you guys running up there"? Wade Phillips has assembled someof the best 3-4 defenses in the league everywhere he has coached (even assembled a pretty stout 4-3 in Denver, which is a testament to the guys ability to work within the strengths of what he is given rather than mold players/schemes into something they are not) His aggressive, attacking style had the Chargers leading the league in sacks (61) and 3rd in overall rush defense (around 85 yards a game). Now, many people will give the arguement that it's the talent that he had. That's a valid point but take into account that Marcellus Wiley was an absolute beast under Phillips and an absolute bust under virtually evryone else. Why? Because Wade knew Wiley's strengthsand played to them. Others (including Parcells) looked at Wiley and thought of what they could turn him into and failed miserably. I don't beleive for one minute that Shawn Merriman is a better athlete than Demarcus Ware. Or that Luis Castillo is a better lineman than Spears. What I do beleive is that Wade found their strength, nurtured it, catered to it, and had major success with it. Proof in point: Quentin Jammer for all purposes was a bust in San Diego until Phillips started putting pressure on the QB. All of a sudden QJ ain't so bad. Might I say he's even damned effective. Sounds to me like the guys that should be most excited would be our guys in the secondary (particularly Roy Williams. Damn imagine a scheme that puts THAT guy in a position to play to his strengths!). Wade made the most sense, no doubt about it.

As far as Jerry meddling, well it's something that should be expected. One thing about Jerry, though, is the man is not stupid. You can't be stupid and build an economic empire that Jerry has. I beleive and hope that underthe Parcells regime Jerry has learned a trick or two about a trick or two. Jerry rarely makes the same mistake twice and he has a bright guy in Ireland to continue down a road of sensible drafting and talent aquisition. Bill hadhis warts in that department also. If Jerry ahd drafted Skyler Green or Peterman or the RT from USC (forgot the bum's name) he would have been crucified. Hell even the trade down when Jackson was available (when RB was our biggest need) Jerry would have been the meddling idiot owner, yet Parcells gets the pass. Parcells also brought in Wiley (who flopped), Boiman (who was given a 1 million dollar signing bonus then cut in camp), Marcus Coleman (who was a non-factor), Vinny Testeverde (who led Dallas to it's only losing season in Parcells tenure). Yet he, once again, gets the pass. Jones makesanyone of thosemistakesunder any other coach and he's a meddling idiot owner who needs to hire a "football guy". Does this make Parcells an idiot? Absolutely not. He's a Hall of Fame coach for good reason. It's just illustrative of how difficult the whole talent aquisition game can be. Like I said, I'm sure Jerry has learned atrick or two about a trick or two during Bill's stint. I'll guarantee you he didn't just stand by and watch. He picked Bill's brain every chance he got. Why? Because he knew that one day Bill would be gone and it was his chance to see how a Hall of Fame coach may approach situation A as compared to situation B. To think that Jerry didn't come out of that whole thing a bit wiser would be naive at best.

BTW ANY message board that would threaten to ban you for debate that doesn't involve personal attacks or profanity is not worth your time. So I say......




and stick around a little more.


Peace,
SS

 

[LatinMind]

Over on another board, I've been threatened with a "ban", been called every vile name in the book, and have been accused of being "on drugs" and being "from another planet" because of my opinion about the Phillips/Garrett hirings.
I'm a Cowboy for life. Got a helmet sized Star tattooed on my leg. Have always had Jerry's back and defended him for years against all comers.
But, based upon the events I've witnessed the last few weeks, I'm not inspired by the new "regime" in place.
I contend the following: The Garrett hire as OC, or close to it, occured BEFORE the HC hiring. Garrett's resume' begins and ends with a 2 year stint as QB coach in Miami. Have you seen the QB picture in Miami lately? How come Huzinga, with all his coaching staff problems didn't do everything in his power to keep Garrett? If a QB coach is the "next Vunder-Child Offensive guru", how come we didn't go after the QB coach in Indy. Or New England? Or New Orleans? What about the QB coach in Green Bay? Doesn't sit well with me.
Then, who else made any mention of Wade Phillips or Norv but Jerry? Nobody. Why is that? How come Turner's door slammed shut as soon as he mentioned his concern about the Garrett hiring?
Wade's record is a winning one, but nothing inspiring or worthy of praise. Certainly not in the playoffs.
All this smells to me like Jerry's got his "crony's", "toady's" and "yes men" on board so as to stick his nose in where it doesn't belong. In the huddle, on the feild and making decisions about who plays where and when.
Am I completely "off my rocker" and "from another planet" for considering such a thing?
I wanted Rivera. How come Dallas can't have one of these young guys with a fire up his ***, spitting nails, pacing the sideline's, one who actually played the game and can actually run onto the field with the players? How come we can have one of these Lovey/Payton/Gruden type of guys? I'm tired of of yesterday's news coaches with boobs. Gailey, Campo, Parcells, and now Phillips. Old school guys the game has passed by (imo).
I love the Dallas Cowboys. But this thing smacks and smells of what I said. An owner who's setting things up to meddle, with a crew of people who will do anything he says.
I honestly want your opinions. Because I'm being treated like Hannibal Lector on this other board for what I think it not that "bizarre" an opinion on this.

so just because this board is in love with phillips u expect that to be the concensus on every other board?

 

[silverbear]

Another thread ruined....thanks bear

You are entirely welcome...

Don't know how you can "ruin" a thread when you respond to the original post point by point, though...

It would appear that it's not that I've "ruined" this thread at the root of your problems, but rather that you don't like the FACTS I brought to it...

I'm quite sure you wish this board existed merely to complain, gripe and generally b*tch about all things Cowboys-related, but sadly, you don't get to set the ground rules in here... those of us who feel like defending the team and its management get to chip in our two cents worth too...

Incidentally, the endless whining about my "outrageous" behavior in the course of this thread are nothing more than a circle jerk for a select group of my antagonists, 'cause I'm not about to change the way I post for the likes of y'all...

 

[bbgun]

Incidentally, the endless whining about my "outrageous" behavior in the course of this thread are nothing more than a circle jerk for a select group of my antagonists, 'cause I'm not about to change the way I post for the likes of y'all...

http://img242.*************/img242/7806/heart200702132219529996pn1.jpg

 

[silverbear]

FACTS.....

You have them? Jerry was forced? We know that?

Yeah, we do... we know Jerry wanted to keep Bill, and was about 98 per cent certain that the ol' coach would stick around for another year...

You know that? Are you Jerry?

Nope, but Jerry is, and that's what HE said...

You see, that's the different between my arguments, and those of the Jerry haters... they'll take any RUMOR reported by the media as fact, but only if it paints Jerry in a bad light... meanwhile, when I see a RUMOR, I recognize it as a RUMOR, and wait to get hold of some FACTS before I get too worked up about the rumor du jour...

There is such a word as 'class'. The beauty of being as clever as you clearly are is that YOU have the CHOICE to show class or lack of, by mercilessly picking fault with someone in a pedantic fashion.

And yet, a couple of the other posters in here felt like giving me an attaboy for ripping up the ARGUMENT, without ripping up the POSTER... which would lead one to believe that not everybody views my actions here in quite the same way you do...

Yes, when I see an argument I find faulty, I tend to pick it apart, in some detail... that's how you do things in a DEBATE, you state your case as forcefully as you can, while rebutting your opponent's case with equal force and vigor... hopefully, you bring some FACTS along with you, because as is the case in a high school debate, the side that brings the most facts wins...

Maybe you take that sort of thing personally, but if you do, I'd suggest that you're a tad thin-skinned for such debating... I'd also suggest that there are mods in here to see to the etiquette of this board, and those mods have always been willing to take me to task on those occasions that I HAVE stepped over the line...

I haven't heard a thing from any of them about my behavior in the course of this particular argument... so if the powers that be don't have a problem with the way I'm waging this fight, perhaps you'll excuse me if I don't care to allow YOU to dictate what is or isn't appropriate behavior for me...

As I said, I have crossed over the line before, indeed I got an infraction the end of last month for some things I said when I was a wee bit hot (an infraction I deserved)... but I am completely confident that I did nothing at all inappropriate here... for sure, you're gonna run across a LOT worse than I did in here if you hang out in this forum long enough...

The way a few others followed you WAS equally classless and you appeared as their champion, just like the big bully in the playground (- although to be fair, you don't command that authority). Others thought it, and so did I.

And I guess it didn't occur to you that folks were doing the EXACT same thing on your side of this argument... naw, of COURSE you didn't see that when ol' bbgun jumped eagerly into the fray to take a shot at me, after dcfanatic first called me out... of course, he always does that, I own that boy...

For that matter, YOU have just indulged in the behavior that you have described as being "like the big bully in the playground", jumping in on the side of dcfanatic and bbgun... so how come it's OK when YOU do it, but wrong when some others jump into an argument I'm waging to express agreement with my position??

The difference being I don't CARE if you want to play... you're welcome to do so, I'm quite happy to take on any and all pretenders to the title... who knows, maybe you coulda been a contendah... LOL...

By all means continue with your style, I'm a strong believer in 'freedom of speech' within reason. It makes entertaining reading, however it lacks a certain decorum that I feel a man of your IQ and standing should be striving for.

Don't know what "standing" you think I have in here, I'm just a peon like all the rest of the regulars... as for my lacking the decorum that a man of my IQ should be striving for, are you suggesting that because of that IQ, I'm not allowed the pleasure of a bit of sarcasm in response to what I see as ridiculous opinions??

Or are you saying I should be this board's "diplomat", and just turn the other cheek when some message board warrior goes postal on us??

Yeah, that'll happen...

PS - remarks concerning PMing and conspiracy are a little disconcerting;

Just my way of mocking your little insinuation that there is some kind of "clique" operating in here, its modus operandi being to "gang up" on any poor unfortunate poster who might happen to inadvertently express an unpopular opinion...

I think I've shown that this board tends to line up into factions on the major issues, and that proponents of said factions tend to flock to arguments that feature their hot button issues... post some anti-Jerry flame bait, and Jerry defenders are gonna respond with vigor... attack your friendly local Bear, and Bear haters are gonna line up to get in on the fun... but in the latter case, you won't see the Bear supporters lining up to rush to my aid, probably because they long ago figured out I can take anything y'all can dish out, and give it back in spades...

Factions are the way of message boards, have been since before I started posting to them, and I rather doubt that's gonna change any time soon... and believe it or not, I am rather popular with a certain demographic on this and other boards, folks who ENJOY the way I sink my teeth into some foolish thread, and shred the arguments made during the course of the thread (this even includes a moderator or two in here)... some people are even partial to me because I have a certain facility when it comes to playing the flame game (when provoked)...

One of the reasons some folks post to message boards is they like to ARGUE FOOTBALL... that's all I'm doing here... and ultimately, that's precisely what these boards were intended for...

When I argue with somebody who approaches this board with respect and civility, I respond with respect and civility... I was reasonably civil in my initial response to this thread, go back and reread it for your own self, then tell me what was so outrageous in what I wrote...

But conversely, if some fool comes in here just looking to spew some bile, to gripe endlessly about all the things he hates about the Boys, well, I find that disrespectful to this board, and if I choose to respond to such disrespect, I tend to be rather insulting when doing so...

I'm just a Golden Rule kind of Bear...

 

[silverbear]

I guess I will just pick this one point and address because I don't feel like typing an encyclopedia size post once again, lol.

Too bad you never bothered to address the point I made at all... but what the heck, I'll play your little game of deflection...

What position in the Dallas Cowboys organization do you hold that allows you to be privy to every conversation that occurred between Jerry Jones and Norv Turner during the period before Wade Phillips was hired?

Oh, I don't hold any position... then again, EVERY claim I've made has been based on quotes from the parties directly involved... example-- the claim that Norv ultimately lost the job because he made some "demands" on Jerry regarding the role Jason Garrett would have... the ONLY place the haters read this was in the speculation of mediots, and they have NO documentation from a credible source (i.e., no quotes from any of the involved parties)...

So, immediately after Phillips is chosen over Turner, the haters read where mediots A, B and C all report that Norv lost out because of the demands he supposedly placed on Jerry vis a vis Garrett... and they jump all OVER these RUMORS, immediately accepting them as facts...

But within hours, mediots D, E and F are saying that Norv made no such demands after all, and at least one of those mediots (Randy Galloway) flatly says he believes those rumors about Norv's demands were a deliberate campaign of misinformation started by somebody inside Valley Ranch...

So now, we have mediots A, B and C saying one thing, mediots D, E and F saying the polar opposite... if that was all I had, I could still dispute the opinions of the haters, but it's not all I have-- I have a trump card, that beats the weak hand the haters are holding here...

My trump card is Norv Turner himself... when asked about these alleged demands, he has flatly said he didn't make them...

Game, set, match... I have the words of somebody who was THERE, the other side, all they have are a bunch of mediots who weren't there... unless, of course, you'd have us believe that Norv is just a big ol' liar, but of course, there wouldn't be much point to him lying about this, would there??

If your answer is that you don't work for them at all then I would think it would be impossible for you to say as a matter of fact that Norv never made such demands to Jerry.

Uhhhh, unless you have evidence that Norv was lying when he said he made no such demands, then yeah, I DO have the ability to stand up and say he never made such demands... you see, NORV SAID SO, his own self...

 

[Ben_n_austin]

Winning records speak for themselves. He's a defensive coach with a willingness to accept other people's opinions... and his offensive coordinator will have the stones to try some things.

He's got his fair share of flaws, which I readily admit, but I just tell people to wait until they see a product to judge what Phillips is selling.

Until then, fold your hands behind your head and enjoy the off-season, knowing full well that Wade Phillips is doing his damndest to make your Cowboys into the mean, blitzing, Romo-wielding, TO fielding unit we all know this team is.

And if that ain't enough sunshine pumpin' for ya, let me know. I got a whole bag of this stuff somewhere in the attic.

I'm too concerned about offensive linemen, free safties and wide recievers to get too worrisome about analyzing the motives behind the coaching hires.

Every hire has a motive. Jerry is a hands on owner. If you're a Cowboy fan, you might as well accept this.

 

[silverbear]

I thought there'e be a 50-50 split and I assumed right.
And it's cool with me that Bear came down hard, that's what these forums are all about.

The thing is, I didn't think I came down hard on you at all... I merely saw some holes in your argument, and pointed them out to you...

But in spite of the reaction of some in here, I really didn't have a problem with you posting what you did... I just didn't agree with your premise, and said so...

My interest in asking around here was about the reaction. I'm serious. I go to several Cowboy boards. This board I mentioned, I've been one of the main contributors too and supporter of for a long, long time. Never had a problem, pretty big player, always brought pretty good game. And just for the record Bear, anyone can "incognito" flame, threaten, curse, put people down, go in the gutter, etc...........I never do that. So, no, the reaction was NOT because I mischaracterized my vocabulary over there. I use the Kings English just like I'm doing here.

Actually, that remark was about 90 per cent tongue in cheek... the followup about having a bullfrog birthmark should have been a tipoff... at the same time, if you were being threatened with being banned, I find it difficult to believe your rhetoric wasn't somewhat stronger than it was in here...

And if the mods over there DID get bent out of shape over an argument like this, that board must SUCK...

Anyway, I could go toe-to-toe with any one too. I wouldn't even bother to post anything if I were thin-skinned.

YOU haven't been the one complaining about how "mean" I've been to you, so don't think I meant you when I talked about thin skins... that was aimed at others who started going on and on about how we were ganging up on you...

The very purpose of any forum is for whoever to post whatever they want. But like I said, I wanted to test the waters over here about the same subject as a litmus test. Becuase if my take is really that "out there", I honestly want to know before I make an *** out of myself again. That's the way it's going over on that other board, and I just don't get it.

Well, as I told you in my initial response, I don't think your response is "out there", but I do think you've missed some relevant facts that might lead you to modify your opinion a bit...

I'll also repeat that in my first response to this thread, I really did make an effort to go after your argument, without getting into personal attacks... I even cracked a joke or two in the course of that response... it appears to me that you saw it that way, but I just wanted to clear the air between us on that one... I don't have some axe to grind with you...

 

[silverbear]

"Over on another board, I've been threatened with a "ban", been called every vile name in the book, and have been accused of being "on drugs" and being "from another planet" because of my opinion about the Phillips/Garrett hirings."

Your sin, lewpac, was being "over on another board." Do not repeat it and you will be forgiven.

yeah, lew, THAT'S where you screwed up... LOL...

If you have a sec, PM me with the name of the other board giving you these problems... I have a hunch I know which one it is, but if I'm right, you post under another name over there...

And if I am indeed right, be advised that I no longer post in that one either, for more or less the same reason-- the mods seem to want a tea and crumpets board, where "Poster X has 1000 posts" threads are more fashionable than football arguments...

What's really sick about that is I used to be one of the mods over there, a couple-three years back...

 

[silverbear]

I know a board like that...

One thing I think we can all agree on is that boards like that SUCK...

It's that sort of "party line" mentality that makes Extremeskins the joke it is...

Football fans like to ARGUE FOOTBALL, imagine that... seems to me that a board dedicated to football fans ought to ENCOURAGE such arguments...

I wouldn't like this board if only the Jerry apologists were allowed to post in here... I wouldn't like ANY board that specified one line of thought as "correct"...

 

[Ben_n_austin]

Mornin', bear....

 

[silverbear]

http://img242.*************/img242/7806/heart200702132219529996pn1.jpg

ROTFLMAO... and here I didn't get you anything...

That was seriously funny, bb...

 

[Royal Laegotti]

I wouldn't like this board if only the Jerry apologists were allowed to post in here... I wouldn't like ANY board that specified one line of thought as "correct"...

That'd pretty much put you outta bidness wouldn't it?

 

[silverbear]

Mornin', bear....

Top o' the mornin' to you too, ol' buddy... you're up late...

 

[silverbear]

That'd pretty much put you outta bidness wouldn't it?

Not at all-- my job then would be to tell you what the party line IS...

 

[Ben_n_austin]

Bully

 

[lewpac]

Nah, Bears cool. Hard ***? Convinced? Unyeilding? Yeah. But the exact opposite of what I'm saying.
Nothing Bear's said has changed my mind. I still think that this buisness the last month stinks to high heaven of "toady" and "yes men". I could be wrong. Hope I am!
But Bear's a grown-up who could make a strong point and mission-statement without resorting to dissing the other guys manhood, intelligence or integrity. Bash my opinion all day long, that's the lay of the land around here. Let's have it. Bring it on. Come at me. Whatever!
But give him credit for, while approaching the cliff ever so closely, for not going into the gutter with those who ain't "on board" his train. Man's got his view. So do I. Let's trade leather and cut each other up a little. And after the 12 rounds, it's all good.
Live to fight another day.
Anyone who wants to see the dialogue and this conversation I'm talking about, PM me. I have now reservations about you seeing it. Just log on and read every word. I garuntee you won't come back here and tell me that I did anything antagonistic to instigate the vitriol and hatred I got back. Garunteed!!!

 

[silverbear]

Nah, Bears cool.

Glad to hear you think so... the truth is, when the others started accusing me of "abusing" you, I had to go check to make sure I wasn't...

I have in the past gotten a wee touch carried away with my arguing, but I sure didn't think I had in this thread...

But Bear's a grown-up who could make a strong point and mission-statement without resorting to dissing the other guys manhood, intelligence or integrity.

Oh, I'm completely capable of going down that road too, but only if I feel like the poster is trying to be a jerk... I didn't think you were...

But give him credit for, while approaching the cliff ever so closely, for not going into the gutter with those who ain't "on board" his train. Man's got his view. So do I. Let's trade leather and cut each other up a little. And after the 12 rounds, it's all good.
Live to fight another day.

Chuckle... I'm startin' to like you... I see good arguments in our future...

Anyone who wants to see the dialogue and this conversation I'm talking about, PM me. I have now reservations about you seeing it. Just log on and read every word. I garuntee you won't come back here and tell me that I did anything antagonistic to instigate the vitriol and hatred I got back. Garunteed!!!

Yeah, I think I'd like to see the infamous thread... watch your PMs...