Informal Poll Is Garrett a better Head Coach than Wade?

5Stars

Here comes the Sun...
Messages
37,846
Reaction score
16,869
CowboysZone LOYAL Fan
Hostile;5096335 said:
The only true litmus test is 2010 when both were HCs here. Wade was 1-7. Jason was 5-3 without Romo.

It was the QB that made the difference. When Romo got injured the team played harder from what I hear because Romo is not a leader. ;)

Different teams, different times, different years...we will never answer the question that was asked.

Football is not linear, but some fans think that way.
 
Messages
10,108
Reaction score
7,327
CowboysZone DIEHARD Fan
KJJ;5096298 said:
The way Jerry undermines his head coaches he's unlikely to ever reach his potential if he has any as a head coach.


Yup, a better way to phrase the question : is Jerry/Jason better the Jerry/Wade? I'd say "Yes" because Jerry seems to be buying into the concept of building a young team with RKGs and that comes from Garrett. Still, I can't completely buy into Jerry's inner gremlin and OL attitude being a thing of the past,,,,
 

5Stars

Here comes the Sun...
Messages
37,846
Reaction score
16,869
CowboysZone LOYAL Fan
TwoDeep3;5096338 said:
Untrue, because the motivation of the players after seeing the head coach fired may have been one slice of time when people worried enough about their jobs to not feel comfortable.

Which is the problem with Jerry.

Jason came into a team that started giving a dang.

Wade had been castrated by an owner/GM who was paying a subordinate three million a year to stick around until the time they fired Wade.

Undermining your head coach and then for a brief moment acting like a real GM and setting a fire will make players play.

There is a reason why every play works or fails, and in this case why the team worked or failed.

So, now this is a Jerry thread.

Nice work, Twodeep. :cool:
 

Section446

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,940
Reaction score
11,618
I'm going with a draw. It doesn't matter who the coach is until there is a change at the top.
 

gmoney112

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,589
Reaction score
15,694
Red Dragon;5096340 said:
By that logic, call me when Garrett's team wins a playoff game.

Wade didn't win a playoff game in his first two seasons, either.

Regardless, playoff wins aren't gimme's. Is it too much to ask to have your entire team not quit on you?

That's more of an indictment of a head coach than anything.
 

Hostile

The Duke
Messages
119,565
Reaction score
4,544
TwoDeep3;5096360 said:
I have often read the taco comment as you have nothing and agree with what I said since you offer nothing in reply.
Not with a gun to my head.

You offered nothing for me to comment on as far as I am concerned.
 

xwalker

Well-Known Member
Messages
57,193
Reaction score
64,699
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
TwoDeep3;5096360 said:
Then in the off season the GM began hiring the head coaches coaches indicating we're back to our old ways and castrating the teams leader by overriding press conferences and making decision for the team.
The GM just accidentally hired coaches that Garrett was associated with in the past? Rob Ryan was not Garrett's first choice for D-Coordinator when he was hired.

Both the current and previous WR coaches were closely associated with Garrett.

The scuttlebutt was the Garrett was behind the firing of the RB coach.

It appears that the only thing that Jerry forced on Garrett might have been the firing of his brother John Garrett; although, it appears that going to another team is probably beneficial to John Garrett in the long run.
 

Fletch

To The Moon
Messages
18,395
Reaction score
14,042
Hostile;5096367 said:
Not with a gun to my head.

You offered nothing for me to comment on as far as I am concerned.

Welcome back buddy! This place has been missing you. I see you're still reuniting with old friends. :D
 

Fletch

To The Moon
Messages
18,395
Reaction score
14,042
Section444;5096382 said:
Hey, very underrated movie!

Funny, I was just thinking about that movie while here at work. Some really funny scenes.
 

TheDude

McLovin
Messages
12,203
Reaction score
10,671
Chocolate Lab;5096133 said:
It's simple: People like Garrett. They didn't like Wade. Garrett is young, thin, wears a big smile, has an Ivy League degree, and is an ex-Cowboy. Wade is old, fat, talks funny, and doesn't care about looking good at press conferences.

None of those things make any difference when it comes to coaching football. But most people usually don't decide on logic, they decide on emotion and then try to justify their decision with logic. And they're going to cut breaks to people they like.

the truest statement I have read in a long time.
 

KJJ

You Have an Axe to Grind
Messages
62,173
Reaction score
39,426
gmoney112;5096349 said:
Wade didn't win a playoff game in his first two seasons, either.

However Wade did have one winning season in his first two seasons that led to a playoff birth.
 

KJJ

You Have an Axe to Grind
Messages
62,173
Reaction score
39,426
The OP asked is Garret a better head coach than Wade? To judge that you would have to compare Wade's head coaching "career" which was 8 full seasons with what Garrett has done so far after 2 full seasons. That obviously wouldn't make for a very fair comparison with Wade having more head coaching years under his belt. If you make that comparison then Wade is by far the better head coach having coached 6 winning teams in 8 seasons which resulted in 5 playoff births and one playoff win.

If you judge Wade and Garrett off of what each of them did their first 2 full seasons at head coach Wade would again get the nod having had one winning season that led to a playoff birth. If you judge Wade and Garrett off of what each of them did in Dallas as head coach again Wade out distances Garrett with 3 winning seasons in his 4 years with the Cowboys that included 2 division titles, a #1 seeded team and the Cowboys first playoff win in 13 years. Plus the 07 team under Wade tied a franchise record with 13 wins.

If you judge who the better head coach is by how both Wade and Garrett fared during the 2010 season where each coached the team for 8 games then Garrett would be the better head coach. Up to this point Garrett hasn't done anything as a head coach to even be compared with Wade. Garrett's had two 8-8 teams that have missed the playoffs and he just got stripped of his play calling duties. Garrett's been under fire for his game management. Garrett wasn't qualified to be a head coach when he was handed the job having been an assistant for only 6 years. He's having to learn on the job to be a "head coach." Teams are suppose to be developing players not their head coach.

The last I checked Ron Rivera with 15 years of coaching experience had the least of all the head coaches until Garrett got the job in Dallas. Garrett never proved to be a capable OC while Wade has been a very good DC just about everywhere he's been that's why he's been given 3 opportunities to be a head coach. Like I said I'm pulling for Garrett but he's going to be on a real hot seat entering the 2013 season. Several coaches around him have been replaced and he just got stripped of his play calling duties so the writing is pretty much on the wall for him this upcoming season.
 

Eskimo

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,821
Reaction score
496
You can judge the HC based on his ability to develop the talent that he is given and use the talent to win games.

Nevertheless, this is all predicated on having someone higher up bring in a pool of decent players for the coach to choose from.

So is there some way we can compare how Garrett and Wade wold fare coaching the same group of players.

Oh yeah, there was that 2010 season where Wade got the whole offseason to put in his plans for the year and develop his defense. He got to start with Romo, an elite QB with Kitna an established veteran backup QB behind him. Meanwhile Garrett got that same team but after Romo was injured with the aged Kitna as his QB and Stephen McGee as his backup. Garrett also couldn't rely on having one of the best DCs in the game in his fold but had to hire one of Wade's lieutenants, a failed college HC named Paul P who had a week with Garrett to try and re-design a porous defense that just gave up 83 points in the last two weeks under the defensive genius of Wade Phillips.

Wade: 1-7
Jason: 5-3

Verdict: Garrett in a landslide

Now add on other things a HC can bring to a team like discipline, organization, culture, player development, coach recruitment, draft guidance. On these measures it is also Garrett in a landslide.

Phillips inherited a very talented roster that BP gave up on. Wade immediately saw the opportunity to build a great team by putting the offense in Romo's hands and fixing some of Parcells defense of the 80s and bring it into the modern game and voila - an explosive offense and a decent defense leading to a 13-3 record with brilliant play on the field. That very easily could have been a SB team. Then the next year things start to fall apart as Wade can't keep the team in check, Jerry has gone wild after the success of the "TO experiment" and brings in guys like Tank Johnson and Pacman Jones and drafts a guy like Marty B and Choice. The team gets off to a slow start and he can't quell the mutiny. Finally Romo gets hurt. Things get even worse when he doesn't talk Jerry out of the RW11 trade where a first and third rounder are given up for a mediocre ex-Longhorns player. Finally Romo comes back but the OL struggles with Proctor in there since Wade can't convince Jerry to invest in the OL beyond all those high paid vets who are playing mediocre ball. This ultimately culminates in the 44-6 collapse against the Eagles. But that team still had a lot of talent and with a healthy Kosier the OL is back to being pretty decent again most of the time until Colombo gets hurt but this time there is a decent backup in Free so things continue to be okay and we win the division going away and cream Philly. But then Wade decides to put Colombo back in and he struggles a bit. Then he gets demolished against the Vikings and loses us the game. Then Flo gets hurt and he can't even pull Colombo and sub in Free anymore. Then finally there is the disaster that is the 2010 season with the team in freefall.

The end analysis is Wade started with a veteran team with a rising young core of Romo, Witten, Barber, Rat, TNew, Bradie and Ware. The problem is that he only wanted to play vets but those vets got old, we got tight against the cap and couldn't buy new ones and the cupboard was bare in the developing propspect ranks. That's what happens when guys like Ware, Barber, RW11, Flo, TNew, Bradie, Hamlin, Miles and Bigg are all playing on their second contracts and not on their cheaper rookie deals. If you can't develop young players to step in for a lot of your vets and you have to pay free market payscale for Jerry's hype machine causing your players to be overrated around the whole league you're going to hit a wall at some point in time. We hit that wall in 2010 when all those previously signed players were already released and creating dead cap space or were about to be released due to fall in level of play.

Now Garrett came in charge at a different time. Most of the talent on the roster had already peaked (Ware, Witten, Romo, Spencer, Austin) or was nascent (Lee had yet to start a game, Dez was a returner and #3 WR who could only run 3 routes, AOA busted, 2009 busted, 2008 never developed). So the fundamentals needed to turn a team around weren't there - very little in the way of young and developing players, no cap space, no extra draft picks. Everyone thinks it is a given that Lee and Dez were going to be great but Lee only played 5 games last year and Dez faced numerous cries to be traded or outright release by this fan base after the 2010 offseason, the inconsistent 2011 season and the bad 2011 offseason followed by a slow start to the 2012 season. In other words, if Garrett was going to rebuild this team he had to do it the hard way - get some of the vets to play better, develop his own draft picks and UDFAs, scrape the bottom of the vet FA barrel and hope for some luck. Unfortunately the luck didn't come in 2011 with late key injuries to Holland, Murray, Austin "losing the ball in the lights", TNew's legs giving out down the stretch, Kosier's legs giving out down the stretch, JPP's blocked FGA, Bailey's misses against AZ and Balt, Dez's finger against NYG.

I think the thing that has me most convinced that Garrett is gong to be good though is the way his players are developing and the way his players fight. Everyone was convinced that Church was going to bust in 2012 but he looked great until he got hurt. People thought Costa was terrible but he looked like he had turned the corner last year when he got hurt. Mo looked good for a rookie. The lights really turned on for Dez. Spencer set a personal record for sacks in a season and really picked up his play after Ware got hurt. Hatcher picked up his play the last two seasons after Rat's play tailed off. Lee looked like an All-Pro before he got hurt in 2012. Carter looks like a future Pro Bowler after many worried he would bust and insisted a backup plan be in place (re: wasted cap dollars on Connor). Look at Hanna develop when everyone insisted that he couldn't catch the ball. Look at how Harris turned himself into a dangerous punt returner and amazing RAC WR after being released in 2011. Players all across the roster seem to be stepping up now that they have been in the system surrounded by players who work really hard and follow the leaders that have developed. Guys like Lee, Witten, Romo and Ware show these guys what it takes to be a professional on and off the field and act as models for success. This rubs off on those behind him who no longer have the goofballs and misfits to look up to anymore (TO, MartyB, Choice, Hurd, Tank, Pacman). Lee takes Carter under his wings and then he is out there flying around after Lee gets hurt keeping us in games. The other thing I admire is the fight these players have in them. The way they came back against Cinci when they were badly outmatched on the talent front after Brown's death. Or how about the way they fought back to take the lead in Cleveland, then come back after Rob Ryan blew the coverage and then won it in OT. How about how they came back against the Skins (35-3) and the Giants (23-0) or the Ravens in the second half or the Saints down 2 scores with 5:00 to go. This team just doesn't quit no matter the score and no matter how outclassed they are in talent on the field. They just keep fighting and clawing.

The way I see things the seeds of success have been planted with all the drafts and the nurturing of these players to develop them into excellent pro football players with great ability and work ethic. The next wave of Cowboys stars is going to explode so long as the injury bug goes back to its historical norm. I believe in the players we have assembled and now with Rob Ryan gone and Kiffen/Marinelli in place I believe in the coaches, too.

I so look forward to this season. An average OL should put is in the second round of the playoffs with a chance to play one of the league's best teams.

The best part of all is that I think they have developed a sustainable model of talent acquisition and player development. The last key cog will be the development of young defensive coaches to mold as the future after Kiffen and Marinelli retire. We all saw with Jimmy Robinson that even great coaches can suddenly decide they need to hang them up. Neither Eberfluss or Henderson will be ready for a couple of years. I think Eberfluss is special and is going to be a great DC - I am so happy he decided to stay here and learn under Kiffen and Marinelli.

I think we have entered a new age where this FO is thinking about sustainability instead of gambling that they are one vet away from a shot at the SB. This is a mentality that lead to moves like Bigg's signing, RW11 trade, Galloway for 2 firsts and accepting the risk of cancer with TO and Pacman. I still could see us signing a premier vet at the right price and at the right position but I think it is more likely to be on favorable terms for the team. That is how you build a sustainable winner and play for something year after year. This is the way Tex/Brandt/Landry did things and that is how you stay successful for a long time. You need to develop a core and then you need to keep renewing it. Jerry's problem has been that when he has found success he has stayed stagnant but that model will never work in football with the short shelf-lives of players and the minimal impact any one non-QB has on the team of 27 starters.
 

Aven8

Well-Known Member
Messages
29,118
Reaction score
45,952
5Stars;5096316 said:
Your right...Garrett makes mistakes, all HC's do. Parcells made mistakes during his coaching years, so has Wade. There is not a coach in History that has not made a mistake. But those coaches have a lot experience, years of them. Garrett is learning and I hope that the whole team is also.

Do we really forget all the injuries on the team last year to go 8 - 8. That had nothing to do with the coach.

But out of those injuries we had only Costa and Demarco who really missed time on offense. When Romo can give you a full 16 games you have to fly. We did not.

Hopefully the new CallaRomo O works.
 

Idgit

Fattening up
Staff member
Messages
58,971
Reaction score
60,826
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
KJJ;5096461 said:
The OP asked is Garret a better head coach than Wade? To judge that you would have to compare Wade's head coaching "career" which was 8 full seasons with what Garrett has done so far after 2 full seasons. That obviously wouldn't make for a very fair comparison with Wade having more head coaching years under his belt....

You could compare their respective careers to this point in Garrett's tenure if you wanted to. Interestingly, Wade first took over as an interim HC, too (in NO, where he went 1-3). His first full two years, in Denver? 9-7 and 7-9. Lol. Doesn't tell us much.

There are too many factors that go into NFL HC jobs to just look at the team's final record and draw assumptions from that. You really do have to look at the context for each season and decide for yourself whether or not a good job is being done. Lots of good coaches have seasons where they end up worse than 500. Especially early in their careers.

The real question is whether or not the guy has the ability to build a strong program over time. I can see why people think Garrett can't, but the things I care about the most all look pretty good from where I'm sitting. By the same token, I don't think there are (many) personnel excuses left. We've pretty much addressed--with the exception of RT--every place I think needed attention. So, we'll see what happens. All things being equal, barring injury and if the defensive change wasn't a mistake, I think we've got a good team this season.
 
Top