Is it just me or do you not agree that deflategate is nonsense

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cowboyblue22

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yes it was a big deal they broke the rules its against the rules what they did if that's okay then do away with all the rules let everybody just do what they want if the rule is bad change but u have to enforce it they nfl don't have lots of game integrity left so they better protect what they have.
 

SultanOfSix

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It's not nonsense because it signifies a culture of cheating. Yes, they blew out the Colts, but such shenanigans could have benefited them with other teams the played prior like the Ravens who they also used illegal formations against.

And yes, it must have had a significant impact on game play because otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.
 

Hoofbite

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It's just you buddy
When you have a pattern of cheating you're a cheater
Every single qb that I have heard so far has said this is VERY significant
It does not matter how many points they beat the colts by
There is no way these guys would deflate the footballs if they did not think it would give them an unfair advantage
If they believed it gave them an advantage and was against the rules then that is all that matters
No amount of distraction will take away from that

Discount Double Check prefers overinflated.

Players also do all sorts of things to try to gain an advantage that isn't there. See magnetic bracelets, pre-game meals, and any other superstition or nonsensical ornament they wear for a "boost". There are a lot of stupid things players do because they simply think it helps when it absolutely does not.

Should they be punished for trying to gain an advantage outside of the rules? Sure.

Should we all of a sudden question the last decade of football because of it? Hardly.
 

visionary

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Discount Double Check prefers overinflated.

Players also do all sorts of things to try to gain an advantage that isn't there. See magnetic bracelets, pre-game meals, and any other superstition or nonsensical ornament they wear for a "boost". There are a lot of stupid things players do because they simply think it helps when it absolutely does not.

Should they be punished for trying to gain an advantage outside of the rules? Sure.

Should we all of a sudden question the last decade of football because of it? Hardly.

When u have to resort to this sort of reasoning to defend your position you know what you are saying is rubbish

None of the examples you give are against NFL rules

The Pats purposefully and knowingly deflated balls below specifications which gave them a distinct advantage in terms of throwing the balls (Brady) and running the ball (fewer fumbles).

They had the ball boys sneak the ball into a room and do it surreptitiously so clearly they knew it was cheating

Brady lied and denied all knowledge when asked, so clearly he knew this was cheating

Every single qb that I have heard over the last several months has stated that this deflation is VERY significant

The evidence is pretty clear if you're not blind

They cheated and are a cheating franchise and Brady's legacy will forever be tainted
 

DallasEast

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http://www.boston.com/sports/column...eflategate_has_reached.html?p1=feature_sec_hp

Eric Wilbur, Boston.com, 05/12/2015
How much or how little did Brady’s preference of having his footballs deflated to a certain level help the 37-year-old, four-time Super Bowl champion? Whether Patriots fans like it or not, that’s the question at the center of Brady’s extensive legacy, particularly for a guy who looked like a shell of himself early last season, until, of course, as the Wells investigation detailed, he got fed up with the overinflation levels of the footballs in an October game against the New York Jets.

Up to and including that Oct. 16 game, Brady was 151-for-246, a 61.38 completion percentage. In the final nine games of the season, he was 222-for-336, a 66.07 completion percentage, a difference that might be scrutinized as proof Brady needed to cheat in order to retain his status as a top-flight NFL quarterback. Of course, he also won the Super Bowl with closely-watched footballs presumably inflated to proper levels, but whatever...
Personally, I think Brady would agree that it was a big deal.

I would disagree with Mr. Wilbur that Brady won the latest football with properly inflated footballs though. Brady and New England won because Pete Carroll got cute at the end of the game and it backfired.
 

Hoofbite

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When u have to resort to this sort of reasoning to defend your position you know what you are saying is rubbish

None of the examples you give are against NFL rules

They don't have to be. Just highlighting that doing something because you think there is an advantage doesn't mean the advantage exists.

The Pats purposefully and knowingly deflated balls below specifications which gave them a distinct advantage in terms of throwing the balls (Brady) and running the ball (fewer fumbles).

They had the ball boys sneak the ball into a room and do it surreptitiously so clearly they knew it was cheating

Brady lied and denied all knowledge when asked, so clearly he knew this was cheating

Every single qb that I have heard over the last several months has stated that this deflation is VERY significant

The evidence is pretty clear if you're not blind

They cheated and are a cheating franchise and Brady's legacy will forever be tainted

Miss the part where I said they should be punished?

They should be, but the issue has been overblown.

Nobody paid much attention to the Falcons getting in trouble by piping in noise. Certainly not this much attention.
 

Longboysfan

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Face it Patriots got caught cheating.
Brady throwing hissy fit at being caught.
 

DFWJC

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I think it's a bigger deal than would have been because:
-the Pats have a history of pushing the rule limits or breaking them (main reason)
-the Pats win their division every year...lots of jealousy
-New York hates Boston

If the Giants did this, it would be about 1/5 as big of a deal
If the Cowboys did this it would be as big a deal or bigger
 

Yakuza Rich

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No. And I'm not the type that stubbornly says 'rules are rules.' I take things on a case-by-case basis.

But, please stop the 'They beat the Colts by 38 points' nonsense.

Maybe if they were not deflating footballs they don't even make it to the game. Remember, they eeked out a victory against the Ravens (and used questionable rules to do so in that one as well).

I'm confident in Warren Sharp's analysis that was backed by Brian Burke on the fumble rate. Players like Benjarvus Green-Ellis went from never fumbling in NE to fumbling in Cincinnati. Brady's fumble rate and interception rate plummeted at record levels since 2007.

At first I didn't think it was a big deal until Sharp's analysis showed something that is huge to the game and doesn't strike me as a pure coincidence and the math shows that the odds of it being a coincidence are virtually none. It would be like a golfer using a golf ball that is smaller than regulation. A smaller golf ball flies further. Sure there are other parts of the game and that golfer may be the best golfer in the world, but it does hurt the integrity of the actual outcome of the game.

What's not a big deal is the punishment. 4 games, $1 million and a first and 4th rounder for a Super Bowl? Personally, I would NOT take that at the risk of my integrity. But, many people don't care about their integrity and would gladly pay that price for a Super Bowl.




YR
 

Yakuza Rich

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Difference being is that isn't against the rules. What happened in Deflategate is.

It's amazing the absolutely nonsensical excuses people come up with to justify deflating a football against the rules and those rules are made for a reason.

It would be like me saying that somebody pulling a Billy Cole and shooting defensive players with a pistol should be allowed then.

Oh wait, that would throw you in jail.




YR
 

Eric_Boyer

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The Cowboys essentially broke no rules when front-loading contracts in an un-capped year. Nevertheless we were tried and charged. If we can be punished for knowingly going over the cap, whether it was wrong or not, then by that same logic the Patriots organization and all personnel involved should be punished.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
 

Hoofbite

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No. And I'm not the type that stubbornly says 'rules are rules.' I take things on a case-by-case basis.

But, please stop the 'They beat the Colts by 38 points' nonsense.

Maybe if they were not deflating footballs they don't even make it to the game. Remember, they eeked out a victory against the Ravens (and used questionable rules to do so in that one as well).

I'm confident in Warren Sharp's analysis that was backed by Brian Burke on the fumble rate. Players like Benjarvus Green-Ellis went from never fumbling in NE to fumbling in Cincinnati. Brady's fumble rate and interception rate plummeted at record levels since 2007.

At first I didn't think it was a big deal until Sharp's analysis showed something that is huge to the game and doesn't strike me as a pure coincidence and the math shows that the odds of it being a coincidence are virtually none. It would be like a golfer using a golf ball that is smaller than regulation. A smaller golf ball flies further. Sure there are other parts of the game and that golfer may be the best golfer in the world, but it does hurt the integrity of the actual outcome of the game.

What's not a big deal is the punishment. 4 games, $1 million and a first and 4th rounder for a Super Bowl? Personally, I would NOT take that at the risk of my integrity. But, many people don't care about their integrity and would gladly pay that price for a Super Bowl.




YR

Romo fumbles less in Cowboys Standium than he did at TS.

Must have been the hole on the roof that caused it. Or maybe good players work to improve upon their weaknesses. You think Andrew Luck finishes his career averaging 10 fumbles per year?

Since 2009, Patriots have the 4th or 5th highest dropped pass percentage in the NFL.

Sharps analysis is so shocking in part because he eliminated dome teams from the equation for some of his numbers, and more importantly because there's no mention of how QB play impacts fumble totals.

Look at both these and things settle down a bit. For example, since Flacco was drafted the Ravens have fumbled a lot more than the Pats. Remove QB fumbles from the equation and fumble totals are near identical. Same for Chargers since 2007.

Keep dome teams in and Atlanta is right on pace with the Pats over the last 7 or 8 years.
 

CowboyRoy

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Again it's not about the psi it's about breaking the rules (again!), lying about it, and not cooperating with the investigation.

Of course its about PSI. That's how this entire thing came to be. Since then, it has also morphed into not cooperating. They should be punished, but the degree to which they are punished is too high in my opinion.

So he likes the ball a little less in flated. Probably has smaller hands. Does the league have something against guys with small hands? Who is the guy that made up the PSI rule? Did they bother to go around and ask QB's what range they liked? Who made up the range? Does that range include too high of a PSI? If so, would Aaron Rogers be cheating if he liked it pumped up real high?
 

DallasEast

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Sharps analysis is so shocking in part because he eliminated dome teams from the equation for some of his numbers, and more importantly because there's no mention of how QB play impacts fumble totals.
Shock aside, wouldn't removing weather as a variable make for a better sampling? The elements have affected games for as long as football has existed. Analyzing data without variables such as rain, wind, unregulated temperature, etc. seems like a logical approach in my opinion. Otherwise, one must factor how those variables should be considered insignificant to altering ball surfaces, etc. Ergo, a wet ball is slippery in an open air stadium on a rainy day but normally dry within a domed stadium.
 

DallasEast

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Of course its about PSI. That's how this entire thing came to be. Since then, it has also morphed into not cooperating. They should be punished, but the degree to which they are punished is too high in my opinion.

So he likes the ball a little less in flated. Probably has smaller hands. Does the league have something against guys with small hands? Who is the guy that made up the PSI rule? Did they bother to go around and ask QB's what range they liked? Who made up the range? Does that range include too high of a PSI? If so, would Aaron Rogers be cheating if he liked it pumped up real high?
No. BDC is correct. It can be argued that the punishment levied against New England and Brady would have been less if they had cooperated and confessed initially to questioning.

Rules are summations of reaction. An event happens. The event is disputed. The event is analyzed. The event is judged. A rule is born. If a current rule conflicts with an athlete's physical attributes, it will be disputed. There is nothing to argue in this situation. Brady's hands are not small enough to a degree where gripping the ball is difficult or impossible. Your questions lack merit for this reason as far as Brady is concerned. Another quarterback you did not mention? Perhaps, but I doubt any examples have ever existed in the National Football League. The problem (and subsequent dispute) would have surfaced at the college or high school level first.
 

Yakuza Rich

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Romo fumbles less in Cowboys Standium than he did at TS.

Must have been the hole on the roof that caused it. Or maybe good players work to improve upon their weaknesses. You think Andrew Luck finishes his career averaging 10 fumbles per year?

Romo and Luck haven't deflated footballs. In fact, the league actually proved that Luck did not deflate footballs.

And this goes beyond Brady as the entire team has dramatically reduced their fumble percentage since 2007.

And Romo's drop in fumble rate is not nearly at the drop in fumble and INT that Brady has had. He went from being very good at not fumbling and not throwing picks to historically phenomenal. All starting in 2007.

Right at the same time the Patriots were deflating footballs.

Since 2009, Patriots have the 4th or 5th highest dropped pass percentage in the NFL.

Yes, and there is some evidence that points to a deflating the footballs as being more difficult to catch, hence the enormous drop in INT's from Brady since 2007.


Sharps analysis is so shocking in part because he eliminated dome teams from the equation for some of his numbers, and more importantly because there's no mention of how QB play impacts fumble totals.

Look at both these and things settle down a bit. For example, since Flacco was drafted the Ravens have fumbled a lot more than the Pats. Remove QB fumbles from the equation and fumble totals are near identical. Same for Chargers since 2007.

Keep dome teams in and Atlanta is right on pace with the Pats over the last 7 or 8 years.

The problem is that Brian Burke did analysis of his own and showed that compared to outdoors teams, the Patriots are wayyyy better at not fumbling than anybody else and it happened right overnight....in 2007.

Here's the article.

http://www.advancedfootballanalytic...ral/224-the-patriots-have-great-ball-security

"Whoa. In this case NE is at the top of the list, and the next best team is a distant second. Notice how the second team (BLT) through the second to last team (PHI) have rates that are within 1 or 2 plays of each other. NE, however, is better than the next best team by 20 plays per fumble

You might notice that 2013 was a bit of a down year for NE ball security. That's partly due to the week 12
game against DEN in insanely frigid conditions. NE had 6 fumbles and Denver had 5. Extremely cold temperatures are associated with high fumble rates--They're about 35% more frequent than usual in the coldest games. But if we threw out that game, NE would have a 60 play-per-fumble rate. Not the best that season, but still better than any other outdoor team's 5-year average." - Brian Burke

Also, New England is not a heavy running team. I think running teams are less likely to fumble (depends on the tailbacks fumbling tendency) because they're likely to have better ball security than receivers. The next closest outdoor team is Baltimore which runs a lot. Carolina is a warm weather team (that runs a lot) and plays in a division with Tampa (warm weather), Atlanta and New Orleans (dome teams). New England plays in a division with 1 warm weather team (Miami) and the others...including their own home...where temperatures and weather conditions are very conducive to fumbling.

Not to mention that Brady's fumble rate reduced by 114%, this after 6 seasons as a starter and missing the entire 2008 season with an injury.

Compared to Romo whose fumble rate reduced by 76%, after 2.5 seasons as a starter...and playing in a dome-like stadium.

Oh, and let's not forget that Bill Belichick wrote the foreword to a little known book called Football Physics which addressed things like how changing the properties in a football will affect its aerodynamics. Something tells me that they may have used that information in order to seize an unfair advantage. Why? Because they did the same thing at SpyGate.




YR
 

Yakuza Rich

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Average NFL QB hand size is 9.6 inches. Brady's? 10.25 inches

Yup, his hands are small.

Good grief.





YR
 

CowboyRoy

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No. BDC is correct. It can be argued that the punishment levied against New England and Brady would have been less if they had cooperated and confessed initially to questioning.

Rules are summations of reaction. An event happens. The event is disputed. The event is analyzed. The event is judged. A rule is born. If a current rule conflicts with an athlete's physical attributes, it will be disputed. There is nothing to argue in this situation. Brady's hands are not small enough to a degree where gripping the ball is difficult or impossible. Your questions lack merit for this reason as far as Brady is concerned. Another quarterback you did not mention? Perhaps, but I doubt any examples have ever existed in the National Football League. The problem (and subsequent dispute) would have surfaced at the college or high school level first.

I never disputed that it wouldnt have been less. The crux if the issue with Brady is the PSI. After all its called deflategate for a reason. Its not called uncooperategate now is it?
 
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