Jerry Jones says Cowboys will NOT draft QB with no. 4 pick *Super Hot Pants Mega Merge*

Stash

Staff member
Messages
78,835
Reaction score
103,565
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
But, but, but , but these QBs are are from s bad QB draft class. How can that be?

Didn't you know? His numbers were inflated so they don't count. And we just can't go by production when judging these guys.

I don't know when we stopped judging quarterbacks by what they did throwing the ball...
 

MichaelWinicki

"You want some?"
Staff member
Messages
47,997
Reaction score
27,917
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
Fact - Goff put up better numbers in three years than Manning did in four.

But keep typing 100's of words to try to wiggle your way out of that too. Maybe the uninformed might not notice.

I dunno Stash, I think you know as well as I do how fraught with problems just going by numbers is when comparing era to era...

If it were all about production Andre Ware and David Klingler would have aced it at the NFL level.

But in an college-era of bubble screens and spread offenses any shmo can pile up great numbers against low-level competition or shoddy defenses.

I'd like to see something about how the guy carved up a very-good defense or a collection of videos showing him looking off defenders or going to his 4th read.

Most of the guys that wash-out in the NFL don't wash-out due to a lack of physical skills– It's what's between their ears that separates the men from the boys.

As we've seen in the NFL, the spread/bubble screen offense can make a shaky NFL QB like Nick Foles look good– but put him in a pro-style offense and his "warts" are seen by all.
 

CATCH17

1st Round Pick
Messages
67,666
Reaction score
86,212
But were blitzed right up the middle way too much for a top shelf unit. It takes time to grow together there, but they did have some leaks.


Our passing game puts a ton of pressure on the OL.

When you have long extended routes plus a QB that likes to extend plays as long as possible then there will always be leaks.
 

Stash

Staff member
Messages
78,835
Reaction score
103,565
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
Sorry but you cherry picked NFL numbers and are obviously emmbarrassed yet again for not comparing their actual college production in terms of play making ability, funny you failed to list these numbers.

Did you think no one would notice the other players college production?

Where are Patrick Willis' 6 sacks to compare with Jacks's 1?

Or Luke Kuechley's 35 tackles for loss compared to Jack's 15? And somehow in your world, Jacks's 4 INT's are equal to Jack's 4? Great math skills there too.

And what about the fact that Kuecjphley had more tackles in a season than your guy had in his career? Care yo discuss that? Somehow, I doubt it.

[quite]Since Jack was mostly put in coverage the other statistics would be of little value, however, based on interceptions, fumble recoveries and forced fumbles he has the same production with one less year of college and while being moved around and playing offense.[/quote]

Oh, here it is, the attempt to somehow twist the other statistics to be "of little value". Apparent, desperate, and sad.

You argued yourself that even while playing in coverage the numbers should be there and when compared to the others, playing one position, they are similar.

If he was "mostly out in coverage" compared to the others, why aren't his numbers better? That's your excuse for why they're worse everywhere else after all? And if he's "mostly in coverage", how does that match up with your contention that he'll be great at middle linebacker? The contradictions abound...

Again, the guy that fails to watch the game tape, declaring Jack had never played the mike because according to you, he never did so, so embarrassing.

You were wrong about Jack playing the mike, your production argument was reduced to absurdity and now all you have is projection.

How many games did he start and play at mike linebacker? Answer that question before you try to present the case that Jack "played the mike". Back up your claim for a change.

How do you get Jack is a projection as a linebacker? I only argued he can play the Mike, not that he must play the Mike on the next level.

There is absolutely zero projection as Jack being a linebacker, why is this hard for you to understand, no one is arguing that he must play the Mike, that is your overstatement, not mine.

Forget 'the next level'. Where's he playing if Dallas drafts him? Everything else is irrelevant. Answer a few questions I'm directly asking you for a change.

Further, who says Jack must be picked at #4, this is another of your false creations, I simply stated that in this particular draft Jack is a top 5 talent and is worthy of consideration in the top five accordingly.

Why do you think all of the top evaluators and scouts have him rated that high in this draft?

Probably because unlike you, they actually looked at all of his game tape!

And I only care about Dallas drafting him. If someone else takes him great, I don't care. I'm not saying the guy sucks, no matter what you might try to spin, his coverage abilities are phenomenal and he can fly all over the field. My entire point is that I don't want anything to do with him for the Cowboys at #4. Not with their needs, and not given the other players who could or would be available to them.
 

CCBoy

Well-Known Member
Messages
47,031
Reaction score
22,617
Our passing game puts a ton of pressure on the OL.

When you have long extended routes plus a QB that likes to extend plays as long as possible then there will always be leaks.

That's just life in the NFL. All defenses attack what an opponent does...but taking care of a negative tendency, is another thing.

Halfway through last season, the zone blocking scheme had to be abandoned to provide more of a Power Back style to better support McFadden's strengths. Now how much did that change pass blocking in transitions?
 

Stash

Staff member
Messages
78,835
Reaction score
103,565
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
I dunno Stash, I think you know as well as I do how fraught with problems just going by numbers is when comparing era to era...

If it were all about production Andre Ware and David Klingler would have aced it at the NFL level.

Conversely, should production be thrown out and disregarded? If you're doing that, how do you judge the talent? How they look in the shower? If their throws are a "thing of beauty"?

What's the alternative to watching the guy throw the football, and looking at his cumulative body of work?

But in an college-era of bubble screens and spread offenses any shmo can pile up great numbers against low-level competition or shoddy defenses.

I'd like to see something about how the guy carved up a very-good defense or a collection of videos showing him looking off defenders or going to his 4th read.

In watching film on Goff, I didn't see a bunch of "bubble screens", did you? I saw a guy with a pretty sorry team around him, doing everything he could to keep that sorry team in the game. It was like poor Archie Manning! But I definitely saw a guy ready, willing, and able to go down the field too. And when he did, he threw catchable passes with tremendous touch, reminding me a lot of Joe Montana.

Most of the guys that wash-out in the NFL don't wash-out due to a lack of physical skills– It's what's between their ears that separates the men from the boys.

Have you seen anything from Goff - or Wentz for that matter - that would lead you to believe that this could be the case with either of them?

As we've seen in the NFL, the spread/bubble screen offense can make a shaky NFL QB like Nick Foles look good– but put him in a pro-style offense and his "warts" are seen by all.

At this point, and for the foreseeable future, virtually all of the quarterbacks will be transitioning to a "pro-style offense".
 

MichaelWinicki

"You want some?"
Staff member
Messages
47,997
Reaction score
27,917
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
Conversely, should production be thrown out and disregarded? If you're doing that, how do you judge the talent? How they look in the shower? If their throws are a "thing of beauty"?

What's the alternative to watching the guy throw the football, and looking at his cumulative body of work?



In watching film on Goff, I didn't see a bunch of "bubble screens", did you? I saw a guy with a pretty sorry team around him, doing everything he could to keep that sorry team in the game. It was like poor Archie Manning! But I definitely saw a guy ready, willing, and able to go down the field too. And when he did, he threw catchable passes with tremendous touch, reminding me a lot of Joe Montana.



Have you seen anything from Goff - or Wentz for that matter - that would lead you to believe that this could be the case with either of them?



At this point, and for the foreseeable future, virtually all of the quarterbacks will be transitioning to a "pro-style offense".

Nope, production can't be ignored, but it's not a all-being either.

I think the over-riding problem with ussins trying to evaluate QB's is that we aren't privy to the stuff going on behind closed doors that tests what goes on between their ears.
 

Stash

Staff member
Messages
78,835
Reaction score
103,565
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
Nope, production can't be ignored, but it's not a all-being either.

Nothing is, but it's a better indicator of future production than anything else.

I think the over-riding problem with ussins trying to evaluate QB's is that we aren't privy to the stuff going on behind closed doors that tests what goes on between their ears.

Not for the quarterbacks, and not for anyone else. But have you gotten any information that this would be an issue for either guy?
 

Stash

Staff member
Messages
78,835
Reaction score
103,565
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan

MichaelWinicki

"You want some?"
Staff member
Messages
47,997
Reaction score
27,917
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
Nothing is, but it's a better indicator of future production than anything else.



Not for the quarterbacks, and not for anyone else. But have you gotten any information that this would be an issue for either guy?

Me personally?

I have to rely mostly on what the folks closer to the situation have to say... Just like everyone else I guess.
 

Stash

Staff member
Messages
78,835
Reaction score
103,565
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
Me personally?

I have to rely mostly on what the folks closer to the situation have to say... Just like everyone else I guess.

So, you haven't heard anything about either guy's intelligence or work ethic being an issue?
 

Rogerthat12

DWAREZ
Messages
14,605
Reaction score
9,989
Where are Patrick Willis' 6 sacks to compare with Jacks's 1?

Jack was primarily playing in coverage and not close to the line of scrimmage, he was not asked to rush the passer to the extent that Willis and others were, it is simple common sense.

However, Willis had 1 interception, 3 less than Jack and similar fumble statistics all the while playing a year more than Jack.

There goes that argument...DOINK!

Or Luke Kuechley's 35 tackles for loss compared to Jack's 15? And somehow in your world, Jacks's 4 INT's are equal to Jack's 4? Great math skills there too.

See above, he will not have tackles for loss percentages like Luke while he is primarily in coverage, simple common sense would tell you this fact.

Jack can not be playing close to the line of scrimmage while also being in coverage at the same time and in the same relationship, sorry!

However, Luke played a year more than Jack and only had 7 interceptions with ZERO fumble recoveries and ZERO forced fumbles.

Jack played a year less and had 4 interceptions with two 2 fumble recoveries and 1 forced fumble.

So basically, Luke had 3 more interceptions than Jack but also played an extra year, while having less fumble recoveries and forced fumbles, so basically this undermines your argument.

And what about the fact that Kuecjphley had more tackles in a season than your guy had in his career? Care yo discuss that? Somehow, I doubt it.

Jack played primarily in coverage, this proves nothing.


Oh, here it is, the attempt to somehow twist the other statistics to be "of little value". Apparent, desperate, and sad
.

Desperate and sad is not watching the game tape of a player, being wrong about what they have done and in denial concerning what other successful NFL linebackers actually produced in college.

All of your other statistics are meaningless if Jack was not asked to do the same things, however, the play making statistics are the same when compared with similar actions.



If he was "mostly out in coverage" compared to the others, why aren't his numbers better? That's your excuse for why they're worse everywhere else after all? And if he's "mostly in coverage", how does that match up with your contention that he'll be great at middle linebacker? The contradictions abound...

There are absolutely no contradictions except for you saying Jack never played the Mike and that he can not when he actually has done so.

Further, Jack has the size, speed, block deconstruction and elite athleticism to play the Mike and all the other linebacker positions.

Mike linebackers in today's NFL have changed to players who can run and cover, even at the Mike position in a passing NFL.



How many games did he start and play at mike linebacker? Answer that question before you try to present the case that Jack "played the mike". Back up your claim for a change.

You need to go review his 29 games and put the work in film study, that is after all why you claimed he NEVER played the Mike.

I backed up my claim that Jack played the Mike in college with actual game tape that you refused to watch, time to take your head out of the sand and look at the prospects overall body of work before rushing to adjudication which is obvious that you have failed to do!



Forget 'the next level'. Where's he playing if Dallas drafts him? Everything else is irrelevant. Answer a few questions I'm directly asking you for a change.

They could play him anywhere, Will or Mike would be my guess, Eberflus likes and drafts weakside linebackers like Hitchens and has indicated that he can play them anywhere, notice Hitchens has played the Mike and is smaller and has way less athleticism and talent than Jack.

This alone should answer your question about an elite prospect playing the Mike, how did Hitchens play the Mike, he was not a Mike in college nor elite???

The same knock on him:


Hitchens was selected by the Dallas Cowboys in the fourth round (119th overall) of the 2014 NFL Draft, with the purpose of backing up Sean Lee at middle linebacker. At the time, the selection was considered by the media as a reach and there were questions if he could play in the middle of the defense.[2]

Hitchens was a will in college, never played the Mike and how did he play the Mike in Dallas?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Hitchens#cite_note-2


And I only care about Dallas drafting him. If someone else takes him great, I don't care. I'm not saying the guy sucks, no matter what you might try to spin, his coverage abilities are phenomenal and he can fly all over the field. My entire point is that I don't want anything to do with him for the Cowboys at #4. Not with their needs, and not given the other players who could or would be available to them.

This is your opinion, prerogative and preference which is fine, I have no issue with this take.

My issue is with saying Jack can not play the Mike when he has done so in college and on film!

In addition, the false argument that Jack has less college production which under honest analysis of the his amount of playing time (2 years and two way player as well) and with respect to the symmetrical attributable comparative components of Jack with other successful NFL linebackers, it is similar.

Further, since I personally covet a QB everything else does not matter.

However, regardless of what I want, Jack is special and has the ability to play any linebacker position and is a top 5 talent regardless and is in the conversation at #4.

Jack has indicated as has Brugler and others that his medicals at the combine checked out, he is getting ready for his pro day in a few weeks and has been lifting and running.

Clarence either was thinking of J. Smith or simply was misinformed and the ultimate proof will be in two weeks regardless when he does everything for his pro day!
 
Last edited:

MichaelWinicki

"You want some?"
Staff member
Messages
47,997
Reaction score
27,917
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
So, you haven't heard anything about either guy's intelligence or work ethic being an issue?

What I've heard and seen is that Goff ranking is decreasing relative to other players in the draft.

And I've heard/seen numerous people talk about this QB class not being top-notch.

Don't know what else needs to be said.
 

tyke1doe

Well-Known Member
Messages
54,312
Reaction score
32,716
That INT he made in that game was sweet. It's one thing to sit in the middle of the field and spy like many LBs do and get a pick, but following a slot receiver down the field and snatching the ball out of the air? Really impressive stuff.

I wasn't entirely impressed with him when I first watched his clips a couple months ago, but I see what the scouts see now. My only knock on him right now outside of him having some trouble getting off blocks is him not giving 100% in plays, this is just observation, where he doesn't feel he's in position to make a play. If we are to draft him, you hustle from whistle to whistle under Marinelli and I'm sure he will drill that into Jack's head.

Could that be a product of not playing one position all the time? Confidence grows with knowledge. And the more you know something, the greater your confidence.

There's a drawback to playing multiple positions - even if you have the talent to do so - and that's you're so versatile that you don't get to concentrate on being excellent at one thing.

And when you're not excellent at that thing, then you're less confident. And when you're less confident, you're hesitant and you don't give your all.

Just my theory.
 

Rogerthat12

DWAREZ
Messages
14,605
Reaction score
9,989
Could that be a product of not playing one position all the time? Confidence grows with knowledge. And the more you know something, the greater your confidence.

There's a drawback to playing multiple positions - even if you have the talent to do so - and that's you're so versatile that you don't get to concentrate on being excellent at one thing.

And when you're not excellent at that thing, then you're less confident. And when you're less confident, you're hesitant and you don't give your all.

Just my theory.

You nailed it, that is where the coaches need to plug him and play him while coaching Jack up.

Heck, they were using him as a running back and he was a good one at that!

He has all the tools, he just needs to have a home base and then they can move him around out of his base.

Mora did not want to lose him and told him some NFL execs are conservative and will want to see Jack at one position for a longer period for evaluation purposes, he wanted to keep the player but it was obvious they were still going to move him around!
 

Stash

Staff member
Messages
78,835
Reaction score
103,565
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan

Stash

Staff member
Messages
78,835
Reaction score
103,565
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
What I've heard and seen is that Goff ranking is decreasing relative to other players in the draft.

Where have you seen those? I would be interested to read them.

And I've heard/seen numerous people talk about this QB class not being top-notch.

Both of these guys will be drafted in the top 10 this year, and one of them at #2 overall is virtually guaranteed. If Tennessee hadn't drafted their quarterback last year, do you think that Goff and Wentz would be off the board at #1 and #2?

Don't know what else needs to be said.

I'd prefer something with more substance behind it. No disrespect, but this sounds like just a lot of opinion bias.
 

tyke1doe

Well-Known Member
Messages
54,312
Reaction score
32,716
No one in the draft is a sure thing. Clowney was suppose to be a sure thing and he's been a bust for Houston. Khalil Mack has been a much better player than Clowney and he was taken 5th overall.

Clowney was far from a sure thing. His desire had been question by several draft experts. In fact, I remember several commentators saying that Khalil Mack was the better player. But the "talent" and "ceiling" factor won out.

But I predicted even before the draft Clowney wouldn't live up to his potential. He's lazy. He was lazy in high school, lazy in college and now he's lazy in the NFL.

Never chose lazy players, especially not at the top of the draft. I don't care how much talent they have.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled programming. :D
 
Top