JFK Assassination...Your Honest Thoughts

[arglebargle]

"Former U.S. Marine sniper Craig Roberts and Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock, who was the senior instructor for the U.S. Marine Corps Sniper Instructor School at Marine Corps Base Quantico in Quantico, Virginia, both said it could not be done as described by the FBI investigators. "Let me tell you what we did at Quantico," Hathcock said. "We reconstructed the whole thing: the angle, the range, the moving target, the time limit, the obstacles, everything. I don’t know how many times we tried it, but we couldn’t duplicate what the Warren Commission said Oswald did. Now if I can’t do it, how in the world could a guy who was a non-qual on the rifle range and later only qualified 'marksman' do it?""

from this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination_conspiracy_theories

With more sniper details on it here:

http://www.strike-the-root.com/51/herman/herman16.html

 

[RS12]

Nope. Not buying this theory at all.

There are some conspiracy theories I can see. This one, not even a fraction of it. It was his rifle. He was anti-Kennedy. He built a nest. No way he let someone else use his gun. Just too far fetched.

Fine with me. Just like the Warren commision and magic bullet theory are laughable, just goes to show how gullable people can be. BTW even the government said in 1979 said likely a conspiracy.

 

[CowboyDan]

Yes...like I said I have been reading about this since I was a kid.

Here is a link with an article about the discovery channel show.

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/11/13/jfk-forensics-tech.html

Ok, here are a few of my first impressions on the article and clips you referenced:
The article has one line that cracks me up: “Schliebe, along with Tom Bevel, an independent expert forensic investigator, were brought in to examine the simulated crime scene. Both scientists had no idea what the experiment was for or that it was a reenactment of the JFK assassination.“ Seriously?

Grassy Knoll Field Text Video: Not knowing what gun was used on the grassy knoll, the shooter chooses a Winchester, for accuracy, and a soft point round. However, it appears to be too powerful a combination as it blows the head to smithereens. My main problem with this video though, is that they don’t take the time to mark the actual exit/entry wound location on the dummy. They just say “right in this area here”. It’s not marked at all. Instead, the shooter has to remember the location as he walks back up to his spot, then focus the rifle on what he remembers. We’re not talking science here.
It is worth noting though, that the head snapped back and to the left on impact.

3rd Missed Shot Video: Again, they don’t mark entry/exit wounds, they just let him wing it again. And he misses to the right….by how far, we’ll never know because they didn’t mark the actual point of entry/exit on the dummy ahead of time. The shot does cut through the side of the head and creates a wound that resembles a portion of the head wound that JFK received. It does not re-create the massive wound and missing skull that occurred at the back and top of JFK’s head though.
Another interesting observation…. It’s clear that the head goes forward upon impact.

I realize that I need to see the whole show, because these snippets didn’t give me much to go on. I’m searching for the whole show now, but just wanted to share these thoughts awhile.

One other thing…..simulations are cool, but they are not the same as examining the actual crime scene and the actual body, etc. The dummies they use to simulate a human head are very high tech and very detailed, but they just aren’t the same. That always casts a shadow on these experiments for me.

 

[blindzebra]

Fine with me. Just like the Warren commision and magic bullet theory are laughable, just goes to show how gullable people can be. BTW even the government said in 1979 said likely a conspiracy.

Only because they mistook a fake audio recording from an open mic.

 

[Hoofbite]

That tends to be the problem with most conspiracy theories it required so much cover up from so many. When talking of the killing of the President of the United States there would have to be so many involved from top to bottom to pull it off without anyone speaking of it over all these years.

Dude, I just watched part of a JFK show last night on the assassination.

Someone said exactly this. Theorists look and look for alternative reason after alternative reason that by the time they are done they have a web of vaguely connected details so big that you'd have to have thousands of people all stay silent in order to pull it off.

 

[blindzebra]

Ok, here’s a few of my first impressions on the article and clips you referenced:
The article has one line that cracks me up: “Schliebe, along with Tom Bevel, an independent expert forensic investigator, were brought in to examine the simulated crime scene. Both scientists had no idea what the experiment was for or that it was a reenactment of the JFK assassination.“ Seriously?

Grassy Knoll Field Text Video: Not knowing what gun was used on the grassy knoll, the shooter chooses a Winchester, for accuracy, and a soft point round. However, it appears to be too powerful a combination as it blows the head to smithereens. My main problem with this video though, is that they don’t take the time to mark the actual exit/entry wound location on the dummy. They just say “right in this area here”. It’s not marked at all. Instead, the shooter has to remember the location as he walks back up to his spot, then focus the rifle on what he remembers. We’re not talking science here.
It is worth noting though, that the head snapped back and to the left on impact.

3rd Missed Shot Video: Again, they don’t mark entry/exit wounds, they just let him wing it again. And he misses to the right….by how far, we’ll never know because they didn’t mark the actual point of entry/exit on the dummy ahead of time. The shot does cut through the side of the head and creates a wound that resembles a portion of the head wound that JFK received. It does not re-create the massive wound and missing skull that occurred at the back and top of JFK’s head though.
Another interesting observation…. It’s clear that the head goes forward upon impact.

I realize that I need to see the whole show, because these snippets didn’t give me much to go on. I’m searching for the whole show now, but just wanted to share these thoughts awhile.

One other thing…..simulations are cool, but they are not the same as examining the actual crime scene and the actual body, etc. The dummies they use to simulate a human head are very high tech and very detailed, but they just aren’t the same. That always casts a shadow on these experiments for me.

For crying out loud.

There was no large wound in the back. Watch the Zapruder film it shows the wound that matches the x-rays and autopsy photos.

They shot it exactly on the second attempt from behind and the wound and splatter was almost identical to the Zapruder film. Not only in look but by eyewitness results too. Two people.who saw the inside of the limo said it was very close to what they saw that day.

And what difference does it make that they did not put the wound location on the dummy? The tests clearly show that a shot from the knoll in no way matched the actual wounds and the shot from the SBD location did.

 

[CowboyDan]

Dude, I just watched part of a JFK show last night on the assassination.

Someone said exactly this. Theorists look and look for alternative reason after alternative reason that by the time they are done they have a web of vaguely connected details so big that you'd have to have thousands of people all stay silent in order to pull it off.

I don't think it would be all that hard for a few at the CIA to pull it off and keep it quiet. It's not like it was an official order, going out to everyone in the CIA.

 

[RS12]

Only because they mistook a fake audio recording from an open mic.

:laugh2: There was more than the recording which was authenticated by more than one lab, they used eye witness accounts also. Mutiple witnesses saw a second gun man and heard shot from the knoll. Look it up if you dont believe. That is how they concluded conspiracy in 1979.

 

[blindzebra]

:laugh2: There was more than the recording which was authenticated by more than one lab, they used eye witness accounts also. Mutiple witnesses saw a second gun man and heard shot from the knoll. Look it up if you dont believe. That is how they concluded conspiracy in 1979.

No they did't. In fact the head of the house assassination commitee even said recently that had they knew the dictabelt recording was tainted they would have reached the same conclusion the warren commission did.

 

[CowboyDan]

For crying out loud.

There was no large wound in the back. Watch the Zapruder film it shows the wound that matches the x-rays and autopsy photos.

They shot it exactly on the second attempt from behind and the wound and splatter was almost identical to the Zapruder film. Not only in look but by eyewitness results too. Two people.who saw the inside of the limo said it was very close to what they saw that day.

And what difference does it make that they did not put the wound location on the dummy? The tests clearly show that a shot from the knoll in no way matched the actual wounds and the shot from the SBD location did.

First off, as I said, I need to see the whole episode. The link that you gave me just has a few clips of certain shots. I just told you what I noticed in those clips.

Are you saying there wasn't a large wound in the back of his head? I thought that's what I saw in autopsy photos. And the Doctor that worked on JFK at Parkland Hospital in Dallas said this:
Dr. Charles Crenshaw, surgeon at Parkland Hospital: The headwound was difficult to see when he was laying on the back of his head. However, afterwards when they moved his face towards the left, one could see the large, right rear parietal, occipital, blasted out hole, the size of my fist, which is 2 and a half inches in diameter. The brain, cerebreal portion had been flurred out and also there was the cerebrellum hanging out from that wound. It was clearly an exit wound from the right rear, behind the ear. A right occipital area hole, the size of my fist.

Doris Nelson, emergancy room nurse at Parkland Hospital: We wrapped him up .... and I saw his whole head ... There was no hair back there ... It was blown away. Some of his head was blown away and his brains were fallen down on the stretcher.

And finally, it makes a huge difference where you hit the target as to what wound you create and as to where the bullet enters and exits the dummy. They actually use the phrase "guarantee of our forensic accuracy" and make a big deal out of tracking blood and material splatter, and they don't make sure the target is hit at the exact spots? C'mon man.​

 

[Anjinsan]

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Was_jfk_shot_by_one_or_two_shooters

 

[blindzebra]

Ii

First off, as I said, I need to see the whole episode. The link that you gave me just has a few clips of certain shots. I just told you what I noticed in those clips.

Are you saying there wasn't a large wound in the back of his head? I thought that's what I saw in autopsy photos. And the Doctor that worked on JFK at Parkland Hospital in Dallas said this:
Dr. Charles Crenshaw, surgeon at Parkland Hospital: The headwound was difficult to see when he was laying on the back of his head. However, afterwards when they moved his face towards the left, one could see the large, right rear parietal, occipital, blasted out hole, the size of my fist, which is 2 and a half inches in diameter. The brain, cerebreal portion had been flurred out and also there was the cerebrellum hanging out from that wound. It was clearly an exit wound from the right rear, behind the ear. A right occipital area hole, the size of my fist.

Doris Nelson, emergancy room nurse at Parkland Hospital: We wrapped him up .... and I saw his whole head ... There was no hair back there ... It was blown away. Some of his head was blown away and his brains were fallen down on the stretcher.

And finally, it makes a huge difference where you hit the target as to what wound you create and as to where the bullet enters and exits the dummy. They actually use the phrase "guarantee of our forensic accuracy" and make a big deal out of tracking blood and material splatter, and they don't make sure the target is hit at the exact spots? C'mon man.​

Clearly no amount of facts will change your mind. You do realize that 95% of what you keep calling fact was put forth by people who wanted to make a buck.

All of the Parkland personnel have said what they saw matched the autopsy photos and report and this large defect was above the right ear toward the top of his head when they were shown them.

 

[CowboyDan]

Ii

Clearly no amount of facts will change your mind. You do realize that 95% of what you keep calling fact was put forth by people who wanted to make a buck.

All of the Parkland personnel have said what they saw matched the autopsy photos and report and this large defect was above the right ear toward the top of his head when they were shown them.

Alright, well as you've said, you've already done all this research and you know what happened. So maybe you can just let me keep dreaming up crazy theories over here, and maybe someday we'll agree. I'm not trying to convince anyone I'm right, because I don't know. And I'm not afraid to admit it. I'm just skeptical of some things and I'm raising those quetions as they come to me.

 

[Hostile]

This has been such a fun thread.

 

[hutch1254]

It's almost as if she knew.

Eerie. Trance like.

 

[jimmy40]

Eerie. Trance like.

she'd just watched her husband's head get blown apart from about 8 inches away, a trance inducing experience I'm sure. obviously still in shock

 

[Doomsday101]

Dude, I just watched part of a JFK show last night on the assassination.

Someone said exactly this. Theorists look and look for alternative reason after alternative reason that by the time they are done they have a web of vaguely connected details so big that you'd have to have thousands of people all stay silent in order to pull it off.

And that is the problem I have with these theories. We are not talking of a minor scheme we are talking about the most power office holder in the world for a conspiracy to take place so many would have to be involved directly as well as indirectly from the plot to the Warren Commission who investigated and all of these would have to work in unison. Those who believe in some grand scheme you will never convince them otherwise. 48 years have passed and yet not one shred of evidence has come to prove that there was a conspiracy only theories ranging from Castro, the Russians , The Mob to the US Government

 

[casmith07]

Knew what? That it was good for the country to show some strength in trying times.

Knew what the circumstances were. There's no way if my wife had just been killed in front of me that I'd be composed.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

He was a fall guy. I don't know if he shot or not but Oswald was not alone. He could not have gotten those shots off in the time they were fired. There had to be more shooters. Oswald may not have known there were more but there were more.

The Warren Commission was a joke. It always has been but we'll likely never know the whole truth. Won't be long before anybody who really knew the truth will be gone. I'd say that is a secret that will never be told.

 

[CowboyDan]

And that is the problem I have with these theories. We are not talking of a minor scheme we are talking about the most power office holder in the world for a conspiracy to take place so many would have to be involved directly as well as indirectly from the plot to the Warren Commission who investigated and all of these would have to work in unison. Those who believe in some grand scheme you will never convince them otherwise. 48 years have passed and yet not one shred of evidence has come to prove that there was a conspiracy only theories ranging from Castro, the Russians , The Mob to the US Government

You have to remember that it was a much simpler time back then. And there have been tons of "evidence" to support the conspiracy theories or they wouldn't have lived this long. I mean, here we are, almost 50 years later, still trying to hash it all out. Also, a lot of people would say that the Warren Commission report does not have "one shred of evidence" to prove a single gunman.
A little interesting note....RFK spent the rest of his life trying to find out who the actual killer(s) were, but in public he always supported the WC.