JFK Assassination...Your Honest Thoughts

[jimmy40]

He could not have gotten those shots off in the time they were fired.

why not?

 

[CowboyDan]

why not?

I think it's time for all of us to get together and recreate the assassination. Who's got a nice big open range we can use? We'll need a crane and a lincoln limo too.

 

[Hostile]

I think it's time for all of us to get together and recreate the assassination. Who's got a nice big open range we can use? We'll need a crane and a lincoln limo too.

I think we need a Carcano with a scope too. Who has one?

 

[Doomsday101]

You have to remember that it was a much simpler time back then. And there have been tons of "evidence" to support the conspiracy theories or they wouldn't have lived this long. I mean, here we are, almost 50 years later, still trying to hash it all out. Also, a lot of people would say that the Warren Commission report does not have "one shred of evidence" to prove a single gunman.
A little interesting note....RFK spent the rest of his life trying to find out who the actual killer(s) were, but in public he always supported the WC.

As I said believe what you choose, Lincoln was a long time ago yet they were able to uncover the conspiracy. Many of these shows are not giving full facts they dramatize and bring in people to fit their own argument. The Warren Commission had nothing to gain by being part of some cover-up and fact is they would have to be part of the cover up if the evidence was as convincing as the conspiracy theorist make it out to be.

 

[CowboyDan]

I think we need a Carcano with a scope too. Who has one?

Don't forget the second gun. : A .45, i believe.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

why not?

Try it.

 

[CowboyDan]

As I said believe what you choose, Lincoln was a long time ago yet they were able to uncover the conspiracy. Many of these shows are not giving full facts they dramatize and bring in people to fit their own argument. The Warren Commission had nothing to gain by being part of some cover-up and fact is they would have to be part of the cover up if the evidence was as convincing as the conspiracy theorist make it out to be.

I don't think the Warren Commission was part of the cover up, as much as they were deprived of critical info, and inept at doing a proper investigation. Here's what President Ford, a Republican Senator and House Minority Leader at the time he was a member of the Warren Commission, said in regards to this:

In the foreword to the last edition of the commission's report, A Presidential Legacy and The Warren Commission, Gerald Ford said the CIA destroyed or kept from investigators critical secrets connected to the 1963 assassination of President John F. Kennedy. He said the commission's probe put "certain classified and potentially damaging operations in danger of being exposed." The CIA's reaction, he added, "was to hide or destroy some information, which can easily be misinterpreted as collusion in JFK's assassination." [8][9]

 

[Doomsday101]

I don't think the Warren Commission was part of the cover up, as much as they were deprived of critical info, and inept at doing a proper investigation. Here's what President Ford, a Republican Senator and House Minority Leader at the time he was a member of the Warren Commission, said in regards to this:

In the foreword to the last edition of the commission's report, A Presidential Legacy and The Warren Commission, Gerald Ford said the CIA destroyed or kept from investigators critical secrets connected to the 1963 assassination of President John F. Kennedy. He said the commission's probe put "certain classified and potentially damaging operations in danger of being exposed." The CIA's reaction, he added, "was to hide or destroy some information, which can easily be misinterpreted as collusion in JFK's assassination." [8][9]

Again if you want toi believe it fine I know I will not convice you any more than I can convince the people who claim that we did not really go to the moon or that the Government was responsible for 9/11. Things of this nature would involve so many being involved and I'm not buying it.

 

[CowboyDan]

Again if you want toi believe it fine I know I will not convice you any more than I can convince the people who claim that we did not really go to the moon or that the Government was responsible for 9/11. Things of this nature would involve so many being involved and I'm not buying it.

How many people would it take to set up the motorcade route, place 2 shooters on that route, and withhold information from the WC?

I'm not trying to make you mad. I enjoy asking questions about this subject. If you don't wish to answer, I understand. I'm just curious. I assure you, I can be persuaded and convinced, I just need more than people telling me I'm nuts or blind. I need someone to show me.

There's a ton of conspiracy theories about this event, and I've dismissed most of them by looking at what they're presenting and asking questions. However, I currently believe that the CIA did the hit and controlled the aftermath. Not the entire CIA. Just a few, behind the scenes, in collusion with the two Secret Service agents responsible for setting up the motorcade route. I'm willing to be proven wrong though.

 

[Doomsday101]

How many people would it take to set up the motorcade route, place 2 shooters on that route, and withhold information from the WC?

I'm not trying to make you mad. I enjoy asking questions about this subject. If you don't wish to answer, I understand. I'm just curious. I assure you, I can be persuaded and convinced, I just need more than people telling me I'm nuts or blind. I need someone to show me.

There's a ton of conspiracy theories about this event, and I've dismissed most of them by looking at what they're presenting and asking questions. However, I currently believe that the CIA did the hit and controlled the aftermath. Not the entire CIA. Just a few, behind the scenes, in collusion with the two Secret Service agents responsible for setting up the motorcade route. I'm willing to be proven wrong though.

I'm not mad I'm not buying that a plot involving the President of the United States can be done without many being directly involved as well as indirectly involved and that it is then keep hush for 48 years. Again people will draw their own conclusion.

 

[jimmy40]

Try it.

In an effort to test the rifle under conditions that matched the assassination, the Infantry Weapons Evaluation Branch of the U.S. Army's Ballistics Research Laboratory had expert riflemen fire the assassination weapon from a tower at three silhouette targets at distances of 175, 240, and 265 feet (81 m).[66] Using the assassination rifle mounted with the telescopic sight, three marksmen, rated as master by the National Rifle Association, each fired two series of three shots. In the first series the firers required time spans of 4.6, 6.75, and 8.25 seconds respectively. On the second series they required 5.15, 6.45, and 7 seconds. The marksmen took as much time as they wanted for the first target at 175 feet (53 m), and all hit the target. For the first four attempts, the firers missed the second shot at 240 feet (73 m) by several inches. Five of the six shots hit the third target at 265 feet (81 m), the distance of President Kennedy from the sixth floor window when he was struck in the head.[67] None of the marksmen had any practice with the assassination weapon beforehand except to work the bolt.

CBS conducted a firing test in 1967 at the H. P. White Ballistics Laboratory located in Street, Maryland. For the test 11 marksmen from diverse backgrounds were invited to participate: 3 Maryland State Troopers, 1 weapons engineer, 1 sporting goods dealer, 1 sportsman, 1 ballistics technician, 1 ex-paratrooper, and 3 H. P. White employees. CBS provided several Carcano rifles for the test. The MC rifle WC-139 was not used in this test. The targets were color coded orange for head/shoulder silhouette and blue for a near miss. The results of the CBS test were as follows: 7 of 11 shooters were able to fire three rounds under 5.6 seconds (64%). Of those 7 shooters, 6 hit the orange target once (86%), and 5 hit the orange target twice (71%). Out of 60 rounds fired, 25 hit the orange (42%), 21 hit the blue portion of the target (35%), and there were 14 misses on the target (23%).

One volunteer was unable to operate his rifle effectively so the following statistics are based on the 10 remaining shooters. The average time of all 10 was 5.64 seconds. The mode was 5.55 seconds and the mean was 5.70 seconds. The average for the top five shooters was 5.12 seconds, and for the bottom five shooters 6.16 seconds. There was a high occurrence of jamming during the test. On average the rifles jammed after 6 rounds. The most rounds fired without jamming were 14, 11, 10 in a row. The least was 0 (back to back).

The first shooter to lead off the experiment was Al Sherman, Maryland State Trooper. The record of his effort: 5.0 sec: 2 orange, 1 blue / 6.0 sec: 2 orange, 1 blue / NT (jam at 3rd cartridge)/ 5.2 sec: 1 orange, 2 low / 5.0 sec: 1 orange, 2 blue. Sherman was able to fire 8 rounds before his rifle jammed. Of all shooters, the fastest times were: 4.1 sec, 4.3 sec, 4.9 sec, 5.0 sec. The best accuracy was 3 orange in 5.2 seconds. The rifles were oiled and allowed to cool down between shooters. CBS reporter Dan Rather attended this experiment.

During the investigation by the House Select Committee on Assassinations (1976–1978), the lead attorneys for the Committee, Robert Blakey and Gary Cornwell, were allowed to use WC-139 at an FBI firing range. The attorneys wanted to see how fast the bolt action could be operated. Blakey was able to fire two rounds in 1.5 seconds and Cornwell fired two rounds in 1.2 seconds. This was an experiment to test a possible theory that Oswald in his excitement may have pointed and fired, as opposed to aimed and fired. Some critics of the Warren Commission had claimed it was impossible to fire a Carcano rifle in less than 2.3 seconds. Both the CBS and HSCA tests proved conclusively this claim is not accurate

 

[notherbob]

I have always believed and still do that the Warren Commission was flawed because they excluded many things but I agree with their conclusion that Oswald was the lone gunman. I think what they were covering up was that so many were actively against Kennedy and may have been hatching plots of their own but Oswald beat them to it.

I believe Oswald was way too much of a loose cannon to be relied on as a agent for anything. All you have to do is read his life story and especially the month or two leading up to the assinatio0n to see that. I think all the potential conspirators wanted nothing to do with that kook as he was utterly unreliable and all tried to distance themselves from him..

I have no doubt there were numerous conspiricies but they did not materialize and that is likely what has been covered up, not to be released until 2039.

Having been in Downtown Dallas that day and heard the shots, I am positive there were only three shots of essentially equal sound and their echos off the buildings; if there would have been more I would have heard them. As Hos pointed out, those much closer may not have been able to distinguish shots from echos as there were numerous buildings in the immediate area. Sometimes a more distant ear witness can be more accurate than a nearby eye and ear witness and I believe that is the case here.

The visual evidence from the Zapruder film and others causes me to believe that the two shots that hit JFK came from above, behind and to the left. I seriously doubt there will be any really new evidence to surface about this and I no longer have any doubts the lone gunman was the idiot, Oswald. I also believe that there were indeed conspiracies abounding but that he beat all them to it.

Oswald got his warehouseman jon at the SBD long before the motorcade route was laid out and published and I think he just saw that as a fortuitous circumstance and jumped on it on his own. Clearly he had thought it out and planned well during the few days leading up to the event.

He got his wish for fame and to be the shocking center of attention and conversation - everyone knows who he was.

People are still arguing about the Lincoln assasination 145+ years later and I am sure that 100 years from now there will still be arguments about the JFK assasination.

Others may have their own opinions and that is fine, we can't all agree on everything but we can all be civil in our discussion and allow for varied opinions on the matter.

Life goes on.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

In an effort to test the rifle under conditions that matched the assassination, the Infantry Weapons Evaluation Branch of the U.S. Army's Ballistics Research Laboratory had expert riflemen fire the assassination weapon from a tower at three silhouette targets at distances of 175, 240, and 265 feet (81 m).[66] Using the assassination rifle mounted with the telescopic sight, three marksmen, rated as master by the National Rifle Association, each fired two series of three shots. In the first series the firers required time spans of 4.6, 6.75, and 8.25 seconds respectively. On the second series they required 5.15, 6.45, and 7 seconds. The marksmen took as much time as they wanted for the first target at 175 feet (53 m), and all hit the target. For the first four attempts, the firers missed the second shot at 240 feet (73 m) by several inches. Five of the six shots hit the third target at 265 feet (81 m), the distance of President Kennedy from the sixth floor window when he was struck in the head.[67] None of the marksmen had any practice with the assassination weapon beforehand except to work the bolt.

CBS conducted a firing test in 1967 at the H. P. White Ballistics Laboratory located in Street, Maryland. For the test 11 marksmen from diverse backgrounds were invited to participate: 3 Maryland State Troopers, 1 weapons engineer, 1 sporting goods dealer, 1 sportsman, 1 ballistics technician, 1 ex-paratrooper, and 3 H. P. White employees. CBS provided several Carcano rifles for the test. The MC rifle WC-139 was not used in this test. The targets were color coded orange for head/shoulder silhouette and blue for a near miss. The results of the CBS test were as follows: 7 of 11 shooters were able to fire three rounds under 5.6 seconds (64%). Of those 7 shooters, 6 hit the orange target once (86%), and 5 hit the orange target twice (71%). Out of 60 rounds fired, 25 hit the orange (42%), 21 hit the blue portion of the target (35%), and there were 14 misses on the target (23%).

One volunteer was unable to operate his rifle effectively so the following statistics are based on the 10 remaining shooters. The average time of all 10 was 5.64 seconds. The mode was 5.55 seconds and the mean was 5.70 seconds. The average for the top five shooters was 5.12 seconds, and for the bottom five shooters 6.16 seconds. There was a high occurrence of jamming during the test. On average the rifles jammed after 6 rounds. The most rounds fired without jamming were 14, 11, 10 in a row. The least was 0 (back to back).

The first shooter to lead off the experiment was Al Sherman, Maryland State Trooper. The record of his effort: 5.0 sec: 2 orange, 1 blue / 6.0 sec: 2 orange, 1 blue / NT (jam at 3rd cartridge)/ 5.2 sec: 1 orange, 2 low / 5.0 sec: 1 orange, 2 blue. Sherman was able to fire 8 rounds before his rifle jammed. Of all shooters, the fastest times were: 4.1 sec, 4.3 sec, 4.9 sec, 5.0 sec. The best accuracy was 3 orange in 5.2 seconds. The rifles were oiled and allowed to cool down between shooters. CBS reporter Dan Rather attended this experiment.

During the investigation by the House Select Committee on Assassinations (1976–1978), the lead attorneys for the Committee, Robert Blakey and Gary Cornwell, were allowed to use WC-139 at an FBI firing range. The attorneys wanted to see how fast the bolt action could be operated. Blakey was able to fire two rounds in 1.5 seconds and Cornwell fired two rounds in 1.2 seconds. This was an experiment to test a possible theory that Oswald in his excitement may have pointed and fired, as opposed to aimed and fired. Some critics of the Warren Commission had claimed it was impossible to fire a Carcano rifle in less than 2.3 seconds. Both the CBS and HSCA tests proved conclusively this claim is not accurate

In another life, I was not so bad a shot. In fact, I knew a great many excellent to expert marksman. I still know a few. You may or may not be surprised at how many times, this test has been done on ranges everywhere. It is not an easy series of shots. I've never seen anybody do it. Try it for yourself and see what you think. Mind you, the studies you present above appear to be studies on stationary targets. You try using a weapon like the M91 bolt action and get those shots off with accuracy on a moving target at those distances in that amount of time. Oswald was far from an expert. I would also contest that the rifle used in the studies you refer to are not the same weapon Oswald used. The FBI proved conclusively that the specific weapon Oswald used could not have been fired any faster then 2.3 seconds per shot and certainly not with any level of accuracy. Three shots in less then 6 seconds with two finding their marks? I don't believe he could have done this. He just was not that great a shot.

 

[CowboyDan]

In another life, I was not so bad a shot. In fact, I knew a great many excellent to expert marksman. I still know a few. You may or may not be surprised at how many times, this test has been done on ranges everywhere. It is not an easy series of shots. I've never seen anybody do it. Try it for yourself and see what you think.

3 factors that re-enactments seem to exclude:

1. Trees
2. Wall/Window angle in relation to those trees and the curvature of the road
3. Adrenaline/Pressure of the situation. This one being the biggie. You're taking out the POTUS and you don't know how many shots or how much time you have to do it. On top of that, you miss on your second attempt....and the motorcade is getting away.........is that first shot going to be enough? Better fire one more.......make it perfect......

 

[Vtwin]

Try it.

That would be the easy part. One round already chambered. No problem working the bolt twice and getting off two shots in that time frame.

It would take a good shooter to hit the target twice at that distance at that speed though.

 

[Hostile]

Try it.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/jfk8/mc.htm

Yesterday, with the assistance of Sgt. Cecil Kirk and other members of the D.C. Police Department, the staff conducted a second test of the time necessary to fire two consecutive rounds from a 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano rifle similar to that found on the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository on November 22, 1963. The test was conducted primarily to answer the question, would it have been possible for Lee Harvey Oswald to fire two shots in less than 1.7 seconds? Our test shows that it is.

As you recall, the estimated trigger pulls for the shots that the acoustics analysis identified as #1 and #2 occurred approximately 1.66 seconds apart.

8.3 seconds overall right?

1st shot, make it hit target in back...re-chamber, hasty shot in 1.7 seconds.

Re-chamber, take careful aim, hit the target with a kill shot in 6.5 seconds from approximately 60 yards.

Yeah, I think that can be done. I don't see why people think that is impossible. I am positive I could do it and get a kill shot.

I will say this though, I wouldn't have needed three shots. My first shot would have ended this.

 

[CowboyDan]

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/jfk8/mc.htm



8.3 seconds overall right?

1st shot, make it hit target in back...re-chamber, hasty shot in 1.7 seconds.

Re-chamber, take careful aim, hit the target with a kill shot in 6.5 seconds from approximately 60 yards.

Yeah, I think that can be done. I don't see why people think that is impossible. I am positive I could do it and get a kill shot.

I will say this though, I wouldn't have needed three shots. My first shot would have ended this.

Interesting point. Maybe Oswald wasn't that good a shot.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

That would be the easy part. One round already chambered. No problem working the bolt twice and getting off two shots in that time frame.

It would take a good shooter to hit the target twice at that distance at that speed though.

That's what's interesting about this series of shots. According to the Warren Report, Oswald made three shots in less then 6 seconds, one miss and 2 hits. Now, according to the film, he missed at around frame 160. If that is true, that would mean that he missed with his 1st shot. That would have been the shot he should have been in the best possible position to hit his mark with. Your talking about approximately 140 feet, shooting at a downward angle from the 6th floor. Yet he missed the entire car. He hit nothing with that shoot. He would have had to have reloaded and and reaquired a moving target and made two hits, one a head shot, with his next two shots in less then 6 seconds. I don't believe he could have done it. The FBI could not duplicate that shot in tests conducted immediately after the incident.

 

[Hostile]

Interesting point. Maybe Oswald wasn't that good a shot.

Others have said he wasn't. Here's the thing, you don't have to be a great marksman to get lucky and hit something. I've seen people who were terrible shots make a great shot. I've seen guys who were great shots, miss. Not often though.

He was good enough to have done this. I could train you to pull it off in a day if you were any kind of a decent shot.

Bolt actions are preferred by hunters why? Because you can chamber the next round so fast. Same reason why the military used them for ages. 8.3 seconds to chamber 2 rounds and fire 3 is not that challenging.

 

[Hostile]

That's what's interesting about this series of shots. According to the Warren Report, Oswald made three shots in less then 6 seconds, one miss and 2 hits. Now, according to the film, he missed at around frame 160. If that is true, that would mean that he missed with his 1st shot. That would have been the shot he should have been in the best possible position to hit his mark with. Your talking about approximately 140 feet, shooting at a downward angle from the 6th floor. Yet he missed the entire car. He hit nothing with that shoot. He would have had to have reloaded and and reaquired a moving target and made two hits, one a head shot, with his next two shots in less then 6 seconds. I don't believe he could have done it. The FBI could not duplicate that shot in tests conducted immediately after the incident.

8.3 seconds, not 6.