JFK Assassination...Your Honest Thoughts

hutch1254

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ConcordCowboy;3891270 said:
Jackie looking right at the piece on the trunk as she starts to go get it.



Where on the trunk are you looking? Are you looking closer to the lip of the trunk near her elbow behind Jack or are you looking at that knob on the truck in the center? There's an identical knob directly across from it, part of the car itself. Not arguing just trying to see what you're seeing.

Also, in this still I find it interesting that Gov. Connelly and his wife are practically non existent in this frame.
 

blindzebra

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CowboyDan;3891471 said:
When you say "there", where are you talking about exactly? Anywhere on the knoll, or just that one spot where the badge man supposedly appears in an enhanced photo?

In the show Inside The Target Car they looked at all the possible locations and found that it was either too visable or the shot was blocked. Or in the case of the stockade fence the results were wrong.

It is really simple. The only location that fits the evidence is what you choose not to believe.
 

Hostile

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CowboyDan;3891471 said:
When you say "there", where are you talking about exactly? Anywhere on the knoll, or just that one spot where the badge man supposedly appears in an enhanced photo?
Anywhere on that knoll. By all means feel free to diagram for me how a shot from that area enters above his right ear and exits above the eye, but remember I know which way his body was positioned when the shot hit him.
 

CowboyDan

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blindzebra;3891775 said:
In the show Inside The Target Car they looked at all the possible locations and found that it was either too visable or the shot was blocked. Or in the case of the stockade fence the results were wrong.

It is really simple. The only location that fits the evidence is what you choose not to believe.

I know you like the film, but these guys ignore all kinds of actual evidence....from eyewitness accounts, basic forensics to the Zapruder film itself. Throughout both of his programs, he moves Jackie around so much that you'd think she was sitting on an office chair during the event!
The sniper hired by the program, Michael Yardley, says the north end of the Triple Overpass/Grassy Knoll is possible, but is shot down by the show's producer, who says the shooter would have been noticed in this location. But for good measure, they also place Jackie directly behind JFK (with actors) in the picture they show of this view. See picture bottom left. They then take a look from behind the picket fence. And place Jackie directly behind JFK in this view too, even though it's presumably the exact same time in the Zapruder film. See pics below:

http://i111.***BLOCKED***/albums/n131/dlascoskie/GrassyKnoll.jpg

However, in the actual film of the event, Jackie is in neither of these locations when the final shot strikes JFK.

[URL="http://i217.***BLOCKED***/albums/cc151/David_Von_Pein/MISCELLANEOUS%20JFK-RELATED%20PHOTOS/107ZapruderFilmHeadShotSequenceInSl.gif"]http://i217.***BLOCKED***/albums/cc151/David_Von_Pein/MISCELLANEOUS%20JFK-RELATED%20PHOTOS/107ZapruderFilmHeadShotSequenceInSl.gif

[/URL]
 

CowboyDan

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Hostile;3891794 said:
Anywhere on that knoll. By all means feel free to diagram for me how a shot from that area enters above his right ear and exits above the eye, but remember I know which way his body was positioned when the shot hit him.

I think we've established that you and I have differing views on what the entrance and exit holes are in this particular shot.
 

Rogah

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ConcordCowboy;3891270 said:
Jackie looking right at the piece on the trunk as she starts to go get it.
Watch the tape again. She's clearly looking right at Jack when she starts to climb out of the seat and is well on her way out of it before she ever turns to face the back of the car.

Sorry, but last I checked Jackie Kennedy did not have superhuman reflexes. This is beyond absurd.
 

Rogah

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joseephuss;3891280 said:
When you are getting shot you tend to think or speak in generalities. Connally had no way of knowing who or how many people were shooting at the car at the time. I would be more confused if he spoke specifically about who was doing the shooting.
Personally, I think the whole quote is a lot of made up bullcrap.
 

Hostile

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CowboyDan;3891906 said:
I think we've established that you and I have differing views on what the entrance and exit holes are in this particular shot.
Yeah, and I have no idea how you can believe the bullet entered and blew backwards making a big entry wound and then left that tiny exit wound on the skull x-ray.

It defies all laws of science, forensics, and ballistics, not to mention logic.

Oh and if anyone wants to see the pictures I am referring to, please PM me. They should not be posted.
 

CowboyDan

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Rogah;3892097 said:
Watch the tape again. She's clearly looking right at Jack when she starts to climb out of the seat and is well on her way out of it before she ever turns to face the back of the car.

Sorry, but last I checked Jackie Kennedy did not have superhuman reflexes. This is beyond absurd.

What's beyond absurd is people debating it back and forth with absolute certainty. As I said when this offshoot of the topic started, no one knows for sure, but there is speculation relating to things said by Jackie, Mrs. Connally and Agent Hill + what was viewed on the Zapruder film. So for any of us to say she was definitely doing or not doing something is the absurd thing. Jackie doesn't remember it, so let's just leave it at that.
 

CowboyDan

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Hostile;3892111 said:
Yeah, and I have no idea how you can believe the bullet entered and blew backwards and then left that tiny exit wound on the skull x-ray.

It defies all laws of science, forensics, and ballistics, not to mention logic.

Oh and if anyone wants to see the pictures I am referring to, please PM me. They should not be posted.

According to Jackie and a host of witnesses and doctors at Parkland Hospital, he had a large gaping wound at the top/back of his skull as well. The x-ray is believed to have been taken with the skull piece flapped back into place. There was a lot of displaced energy and broken skull on both ends of the bullet path. How do you feel about the drawings, and accounts by witnesses at Parkland?
 

Hostile

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Regarding Jackie's motives.

http://www.jfklancer.com/jbk_wc.html

Mrs. KENNEDY. No; I was looking this way, to the left, and I heard these terrible noises. You know. And my husband never made any sound. So I turned to the right. And all I remember is seeing my husband, he had this sort of quizzical look on his face, and his hand was up, it must have been his left hand. And just as I turned and looked at him, I could see a piece of his skull and I remember it was flesh colored. I remember thinking he just looked as if he had a slight headache. And I just remember seeing that. No blood or anything.
And then he sort of did this [indicating], put his hand to his forehead and fell in my lap.
And then I just remember falling on him and saying, "Oh, no, no, no," I mean, "Oh, my God, they have shot my husband." And "I love you, Jack," I remember I was shouting. And just being down in the car with his head in my lap. And it just seemed an eternity.
You know, then, there were pictures later on of me climbing out the back. But I don't remember that at all.
Mr. RANKIN. Do you remember Mr. Hill coming to try to help on the car?
Mrs. KENNEDY. I don't remember anything. I was just down like that. And finally I remember a voice behind me, or something, and then I remember the people in the front seat, or somebody, finally knew something was wrong, and a voice yelling, which must have been Mr. Hill, "Get to the hospital,"or maybe it was Mr. Kellerman, in the front seat. But someone yelling. I was just down and holding him.
 

Hostile

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CowboyDan;3892118 said:
According to Jackie and a host of witnesses and doctors at Parkland Hospital, he had a large gaping wound at the top/back of his skull as well. The x-ray is believed to have been taken with the skull piece flapped back into place. There was a lot of displaced energy and broken skull on both ends of the bullet path. How do you feel about the drawings, and accounts by witnesses at Parkland?
How come that wound doesn't show up on the x-rays?

How come the x-rays look exactly like I would figure they would from the shot I see in the Zapruder film?

How come they line up with the 6th floor of the SBD?

Magical evaporating bullets must make magical evaporating wounds too I guess.
 

CowboyDan

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Hostile;3892125 said:
How come that wound doesn't show up on the x-rays?

How come the x-rays look exactly like I would figure they would from the shot I see in the Zapruder film?

How come they line up with the 6th floor of the SBD?

Magical evaporating bullets must make magical evaporating wounds too I guess.

Well I'm no Doctor, so I don't claim to know how to read x-rays, but I do think it sure looks like a large flap of skull at the top/back of the x-ray. I also think that there were bullet fragments found in the skull and brain. (there's even x-rays of it...though I don't know that Carcano full metal jacket bullets are known for fragmentation, especially after what the magic bullet went through) I also think that I can supply you with tons of differing opinions by Doctors and experts on those x-rays and autopsy photos. Here's one such differing opinion, which I posted earlier. You may have missed it....

"...between 1992 and 1998, the Assassinations Records Review Board asked three independent forensic specialists to review the photographs and X-rays and all three were in unanimous agreement that the skull X-rays show no entry hole of any kind at any point on the back of the head. (Doug Horne, Inside the ARRB, pgs. 584-586) And, in fact, both of Hume's colleagues at the autopsy had already admitted as much.

In 1978, Dr. J. Thornton Boswell admitted to the HSCA pathology panel that what they had actually discovered after reflecting the scalp was not a through-and-through hole but a semicircular, beveled notch on the margin of the large defect, (7HSCA246, 260) a fact confirmed by Dr. Pierre Finck in his appearance before the Warren Commission when he explained that a “portion of [a] crater” had been used to identify the point of entrance. (2H379) So the conclusion that a bullet had entered the back of the head at this point was based on an inference and not on observation as Humes had claimed. And the alleged beveling of this notch was not the "foolproof" indicator he claimed it was. When a through-and-through hole is present, beveling is usually a valid indicator. But even then, as Dr. Donald Thomas writes in his brilliant book, Hear No Evil:


“There are important exceptions...even through-and-through perforations, are not infrequently beveled on the impact side...collateral information (evidence from the scalp wound, bone chips, fracture patterns, angle of trajectory, bullet fragments) must all be taken into consideration rather than reliance on external beveling alone...a common exception to the beveling rule are tangential entrance wounds, which may be beveled on either or both sides. The fact is, however, when dealing with fragments or margins of bone, and not through-and-through holes, all bets are off. [emphasis mine] This is because the laminate nature of the cranial bone lends itself to chipping that can easily be confused with beveling.” (pgs. 272-273)


One cannot help thinking that Dr. Humes was fully cognizant of the problems with relying solely on beveling which is why he lied and said that he had found a through-and-through hole. The fact is, as observers of the autopsy have confirmed, the autopsy doctors were confused by the evidence in front of them and, in reaching their conclusions, relied on reports coming in from Dallas that a lone assassin had fired on the President from above and behind."
 

blindzebra

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CowboyDan;3892118 said:
According to Jackie and a host of witnesses and doctors at Parkland Hospital, he had a large gaping wound at the top/back of his skull as well. The x-ray is believed to have been taken with the skull piece flapped back into place. There was a lot of displaced energy and broken skull on both ends of the bullet path. How do you feel about the drawings, and accounts by witnesses at Parkland?

Would you stop repeating this BS.

Jackie an no way or form said he had a big hole anywhere but the front. You read into it greatly when she said holding his hair on and ignore when she said from the front there was nothing. That means a big hole not no wound.

And as I have said repeated the doctors were trying to save him. When shown the pictures they said that is what the wound looked like and that the amount of blood, brain matter, and loose scalp made the wound appear to spread farther back.
 

blindzebra

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CowboyDan;3892201 said:
Well I'm no Doctor, so I don't claim to know how to read x-rays, but I do think it sure looks like a large flap of skull at the top/back of the x-ray. I also think that there were bullet fragments found in the skull and brain. (there's even x-rays of it...though I don't know that Carcano full metal jacket bullets are known for fragmentation, especially after what the magic bullet went through) I also think that I can supply you with tons of differing opinions by Doctors and experts on those x-rays and autopsy photos. Here's one such differing opinion, which I posted earlier. You may have missed it....

"...between 1992 and 1998, the Assassinations Records Review Board asked three independent forensic specialists to review the photographs and X-rays and all three were in unanimous agreement that the skull X-rays show no entry hole of any kind at any point on the back of the head. (Doug Horne, Inside the ARRB, pgs. 584-586) And, in fact, both of Hume's colleagues at the autopsy had already admitted as much.

In 1978, Dr. J. Thornton Boswell admitted to the HSCA pathology panel that what they had actually discovered after reflecting the scalp was not a through-and-through hole but a semicircular, beveled notch on the margin of the large defect, (7HSCA246, 260) a fact confirmed by Dr. Pierre Finck in his appearance before the Warren Commission when he explained that a “portion of [a] craterhad been used to identify the point of entrance. (2H379) So the conclusion that a bullet had entered the back of the head at this point was based on an inference and not on observation as Humes had claimed. And the alleged beveling of this notch was not the "foolproof" indicator he claimed it was. When a through-and-through hole is present, beveling is usually a valid indicator. But even then, as Dr. Donald Thomas writes in his brilliant book, Hear No Evil:


“There are important exceptions...even through-and-through perforations, are not infrequently beveled on the impact side...collateral information (evidence from the scalp wound, bone chips, fracture patterns, angle of trajectory, bullet fragments) must all be taken into consideration rather than reliance on external beveling alone...a common exception to the beveling rule are tangential entrance wounds, which may be beveled on either or both sides. The fact is, however, when dealing with fragments or margins of bone, and not through-and-through holes, all bets are off. [emphasis mine] This is because the laminate nature of the cranial bone lends itself to chipping that can easily be confused with beveling.” (pgs. 272-273)


One cannot help thinking that Dr. Humes was fully cognizant of the problems with relying solely on beveling which is why he lied and said that he had found a through-and-through hole. The fact is, as observers of the autopsy have confirmed, the autopsy doctors were confused by the evidence in front of them and, in reaching their conclusions, relied on reports coming in from Dallas that a lone assassin had fired on the President from above and behind."


Too funny.

So he had a partially beveled hole with multiple fractures in the back of his head and a large void of skull in the right front.

So just how does that translate to a front entry wound?

While a bevel on a non-through and through is not conclusive of a point of entry it is still the likely point of entry based on the rest of the x-ray, especially when coupled with photos and the Zapruder film.
 

CowboyDan

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Don't take my word for it, here's what Secret Service Agents and FBI Agents, along with others, said of the President's head wound. Are they all lying?

Non-Parkland Hospital witness statements:

SSA Clint Hill: The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.

DP witness Phil Willis: It took the back of his head off

DP witness Marilyn Willis: Matter was coming out the back of his head

Aubrey Rike(Oneal Funeral Home, Dallas):You could feel the sharp edges of the bone at the edge of the hole in the back of the head

Bethesda photographer Floyd Riebe: a big gaping hole in the back of the head

FBI SA Frank O’Neill: a massive wound in the right rear

Petty Officer Saundra Spencer: They had one(autopsy photo) showing the back of the head with the wound at the back of the head. It was just a ragged hole.

Mortician Thomas Robinson: about the size of a small orange…Circular…ragged… directly behind the back of his headthey brought a piece of heavy duty rubber, again to fill this area in the back of the head…it had to be all dried out, packed, and the rubber placed in the hair and the skin pulled back over…and stitched into that piece of rubber.

FBI SA James Sibert: it was a good size, in the back part of the head there. Well, I think about 3 1/2 inches one way then quite a bit the other...they showed the pictures at that deposition that were neat in appearance, and boy, I don't remember anything like that
...but my recollection of the way the head looked is nothing that would appear as this photograph(see photo below) shows. This photograph is too neat. Right back here is where you would have had that massive wound, right in here, and you see that's neat. My thought was that that was probably taken after reconstruction was done... there was a big cavity there. I mean that you could look in to. The skull wasn’t intact, the bones weren’t in place…there definitely was a large cavity. It was just that apparent that there was so much skull missing.
(from Richard J. Smith)

Parkland Hospital Dr & Staff testimony (Warren Commission):

ATTACHMENT 2: REFERENCES TO AN OCCIPITAL HEAD WOUND OF EXIT IN WARREN REPORT (HSCA
VOL 6, PART OF CE 392, APPENDIX VIII, PP. 516--530)

  • Dr. Kemp Clark, “Two external wounds, one in the lower third of the anterior neck, the other in the occipital
    region of the skull, were noted.” (p. 517) “There was a large wound in the right occipitoparietal region * * *
    both cerebral and cerebellar tissue were extruding from the wound” (p. 518). Kemp Clark (handwritten at
    4:15 p.m.) “There was a large wound beginning in the right occipital extending into the parietal region’ (p.
    595).
  • Dr. Charles Carrico, ‘Dr. Jenkins attempted to control slow oozing from cerebral and cerebellar tissue via pads
    instituted” (p. 520).
  • Dr. Malcolm Perry, “A large wound of the right posterior cranium was noted ...” (p. 521).
  • Charles Baxter, “... the right temporal and occipital bones were missing and the brain was lying on the
    table ...” (p. 523).
  • Dr. M.T. Jenkins, ‘There was a great laceration on the right side of the head (temporal and occipital ) causing a
    great defect in the skill plate ... even to the extent that the cerebellum had protruded from the wound” (p.
    530).
  • Dr. John Ebersole, (taped interview with Gil Delaney, Lancaster Intelligence-Journal) + (a.),March 8, 1978--
    ‘knew shot came from the back or side because the back of his head was blown off.” (Ebersole now says he
    was misquoted. ) In an interview with Art Smith, Chester, Pa., Ebersole said the back of the skull was intact
    “except for maybe three small fragments.’
  • Dr. Ronald Jones, “What appeared to be an exit wound in the posterior portion of skull” (6H56).
  • Dr. Perry, “A large avulsive injury of the right occipital area” (6H11).
  • Dr. Charles Baxter, “A large gaping wound in the back of the skull ... literally the right side of his head
    was blown off’ (6H 40-41).
  • Dr. McClelland, ‘As I took the position at the head of the table ...I was in such a position that I could very
    closely examine the head wound, and I noted that the right posterior portion of the skull had been blasted. It
    had been shattered apparently by the force of the shot so that the parietal bone was protruded up through the
    scalp and seemed to be fractured almost along its posterior half as well as some of the occipital bone being
    fractured in its lateral half, and this sprung open the bones that I mentioned in such a way that you could
    actually look down into the skull cavity itself and see that probably a third or so, at least, of the brain tissue,
    posterior cerebral tissue and some of the cerebellar tissue had been blasted out” (6H33).
  • Nurse Pat Hutton “Pressure bandage was no use ...because of the massive opening on the back of the head.”
  • Dr. Gene Akin, “Back of the right occipital parietal portion of his head was shattered, with brain substance
    protruding”(6H65).
  • Dr. Clark, “... examined the wound in the back of the President's head. This was a large, gaping wound. in the
    right posterior part, with cerebral and cerebellar tissue being damaged and exposed” (6H20).
  • Dr. Peters, “We saw the wound of entry in the throat and noted the large occipital wound” (6H71).
  • Diana Bowron, Parkland Hospital nurse. "There was a gaping wound in the back of his head. It was gone.
    Gone. There was nothing there. Just a big gaping hole. There might have been little clumps of scalp, but most
    of the bone over the hole, there was no bone there. There was no damage to the front of his face, only wound
    in the back of his head and the entry wound in his throat. The wound was so large I could almost put my whole
    fist into it
    ."
 

blindzebra

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I am done. I just wrote that ALL the Parkland doctors said the pictures matched what they saw and that their early quotes were incorrect.

Show me one x-ray, one autopsy photo, one frame of the Zapruder film that shows a large wound in the back of his head.

Show me a location in Dealey plaza that can cause the wounds beside the 6th floor of the TSBD.
 

CowboyDan

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blindzebra;3892329 said:
I am done. I just wrote that ALL the Parkland doctors said the pictures matched what they saw and that their early quotes were incorrect.

Show me one x-ray, one autopsy photo, one frame of the Zapruder film that shows a large wound in the back of his head.

Show me a location in Dealey plaza that can cause the wounds beside the 6th floor of the TSBD.

Maybe they just all forgot what the back of the head was:confused:
 
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