JFK Assassination...Your Honest Thoughts

[Aikmaniac]

I would think an easier shot from the SBD would be when the motorcade was coming almost dead-on to it before it made the turn left toward the overpass.

 

[jimmy40]

I would think an easier shot from the SBD would be when the motorcade was coming almost dead-on to it before it made the turn left toward the overpass.

no doubt, I can remember my son even saying that when we were on the 6th floor. I'm sure Oswald figured it would be an easier getaway if the car was going away from him instead of coming right to him.

 

[notherbob]

Great thread, some fine comments.

There absolutely was a coverup. The day after the assassination, the Asst. Attorney General was on record as saying 'This has to be found to be the work of a lone, crazed gunman'. That was going to be the party line, and the least troublesome to deal with.

Now, what actually happened that they were covering up? That's a bit more tricky.

I'll tell you a story. In the early 80's, a friend of mine ran across the information that there was a book about the Kennedy Assassination that was banned in the US. It couldn't be sold, sent in, and if carried into the USA, it could be seized at border. This got him real interested. Through University libray loan programs, he found that there were 37 listed copies of this book at various major libraries. He tried to get them via loan and found that 35 of the universities had the book on a 'restricted list', that would not even let you see them, if you were just on site. He found two available via the university loan program. One was checked out (and had been for awhile). The only available copy, interestingly, had been misfiled under Drama. He managed to get this copy. On the end papers was the note that the book had been donated to the university by Margaret Chase Smith, noted Republican Senator from Maine. It had '17 of 50' written in by hand, along with an ominous, signed quote from Senator Smith. (I wrote it down, but it has been lost in the intervening time, damnit).

This book was titled 'Farewell America' and it turns out to have been the French Intelligence Services report on the Kennedy Assassination. It details a conspiracy by a bunch of rich businessmen, ex-CIA and ex-FBI members, etc, to take out Kennedy. It names some names. Hmnn.

http://www.jfk-online.com/farewellturner.html

Oswald was almost assuredly a patsy, a designated fall guy. He was probably supposed to be conveniantly taken out shortly after the hit. Ruby was most likely a fallback plan. How much he was involved in everything is guesswork, though I think actually very little. Oswald, imo, was a low level CIA asset. Consider: Here's a military guy, who jumps the iron curtain and defects to the Soviets in the middle of the cold war. He marries a general's daughter. He decides after a few years to come back to the states. His plane fare back is paid by the US Consulate, but he is not arrested for desertion, or even debriefed. He then operates a series of minor pro communist, cuban, etc fronts. Hmnn.

I suspect he was brought into the operation by a former CIA handler, one who was flushed out when Kennedy cleaned house in 1960-61. But Oswald wouldn't have known that.

Speaking of which, the investigator in charge of the Warren Commission was none other than Alan Dulles, the former head of the CIA who was so rancourously fired by Kennedy. Dulles, in a piece by 60 Minutes about the murder of a newsman in Greece, where he was sent in as the American member of the investigation, was quoted there as saying 'Who do we pin this on?'

Evidence disappearing: There's a considerable amound of evidence in this case that disappeared from custody, including such things as a bullet encased in concrete that was thrown out by the FBI, because 'They needed the space.' The brain disappeared. As one forensics conspiracy theorist stated, 'The brain vanished. Why? Because if I had the brain, I could tell you exactly where the bullets came from.'

Who did it? Who killed Kennedy? Hmnn. But it is absolutley obvious that the fix was in from the very beginning to point to the most palatable answer, a lone, crazed gunman. This alone should be reason to be suspicious that that is not the case.

After reading the link I can see why it was classified as drama. An interesting conspiracy theory but still a conspiracy theory.

 

[arglebargle]

"In the 1970s it came out that Nicholas Katzenbach, then Assistant Attorney General, had written a memo to Presidential Assistant Bill Moyers at the White House on November 25, 1963, the day of Kennedy's funeral. Katzenbach's memo comes the closest an official document will probably ever come to announcing a baldfaced coverup:

"The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he had no confederates who are still at large; and that evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial."

Of course, the silencing of Oswald by Ruby on the 24th would indicate to most open-minded people a high likelihood of a conspiracy, and the FBI had hardly run down its investigative leads by the next day, when this memo was written. Katzenbach's memo was a call to coverup, pure and simple. The concern behind it can be glimpsed in the second paragraph:

"Speculation about Oswald's motivation ought to be cut off, and we should have some basis for rebutting thought that this was a Communist conspiracy or (as the Iron Curtain press is saying) a right-wing conspiracy to blame it on the Communists."

The logic of the latter of these possibilities is acknowledged:

"Unfortunately the facts on Oswald seem about too pat—too obvious (Marxist, Cuba, Russian wife, etc.).""

From:
http://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkgen/LastingQuestions/Lasting_Questions_3.htm

The fix was in. The question is, what exactly was it fixing?

 

[Hostile]

Had he been sitting upright, the head would have snapped forward and to the left but it could not do so because the chin of his head was already resting on his chest as he was slumped and with that much energy hitting the back of his head, it went as far forward as it could but further forward motion was inhibited by his chest so the head rebounded off his chest and lurched rearward and leftward. That's the physics of it.

They key to the whole issue is the position of his head at the instant the bullet struck; it was already resting on his upper chest and could not go much further forward, that's why the Zapruder film shows it going slightly forward before snapping backward - his chin hit his chest and bounced back. The bullet, of course, kept on going forward, only the head snapped back.

I cannot begin to tell you how much your contributions to this have been appreciated. First hand knowledge and then insights have been so great.

 

[arglebargle]

After reading the link I can see why it was classified as drama. An interesting conspiracy theory but still a conspiracy theory.

Interesting to me, while I was looking for links on this, I ran across a website that had a list of known conspiracies through history. There were a lot of them, and some were quite complex.

You may think that book Drama (certainly it's veractiy is, of course, subject to proof), but Margaret Chase Smith apparantly thought it was of sufficient interest to smuggle it into the country and gift it to major university libraries.

Personally, I don't believe the Warren Commission report. No reason to: the investigation was shoddy, and they had a target verdict already in place. As to what was actually going on...no one has yet convinced me that they have the 'real story'.

 

[Hostile]

no doubt, I can remember my son even saying that when we were on the 6th floor. I'm sure Oswald figured it would be an easier getaway if the car was going away from him instead of coming right to him.

Yes, it would but the Secret Service and police would also be looking ahead instead of turning to look behind, giving them a better chance to identify him and his location.

On top of this his back would be turned to even more of the room he was in and he wouldn't know if someone was behind him. The way he made his nest he had his back to the wall and could know if he was alone much easier.

 

[Hostile]

- I talked to a guy once down at Dealey Plaza. He claims he was there that day, and he looked the right age, sounded convincing, and didn't hang around the corner where most of them usually do. He didn't ask for tips or money, never even hinted at it. In fact, I was with my Mom, Nephew and Sister at the fence on the grassy knoll where the fatal shot may have come from, and as we were walking away, he overheard me say to my Mom, "so, what do you think?" as we passed by him and he said, "Oh I know that's where it came from." So naturally, we stopped and chatted with him awhile, and he went on to tell us how he was there that day and saw the gun come out of the tree line (no fence there at the time), heard the shot come from that direction, etc. etc. He seemed very convincing, but I'm sure he's told that story thousands of times. It made for a cool experience non-the-less.

Stuff like this is what keeps this debate alive. Unlike Roswell, New Mexico and all that built up nonsense, there are things with this assassination that lead you actually wonder.

There were allegedly 58 people who heard or saw a shot from that area. I think the smoke could easily be cigarette smoke and the shot they heard could have been the 2nd shot ricochet.

The point is I don't know and I love wondering about this stuff.

 

[CowboyDan]

I can't believe anyone thinks Jackie was reaching for brain matter, she was getting the hell out of that car, just like anyone else would have been.

I understand, but it's not my thought, it's taken from Jackie Kennedy's testimony for the Warren Commission and from Clint Hill's testimony as well. (He's the SS agent that climbed on the back of the car.) It's graphic, but here's the testimony. http://www.jfk-assassination.com/warren/wch/vol5/page180.php

 

[notherbob]

If you want an interesting conspiracy theory, answer me these questions - Which came first, Oswald's job at the School Book Depository or the announcement of the motorcade route. How long had Oswald been working there when the motorcade route was announced or did his job start after the route had been determined. Who determined the route? Was this purely coincidental? Did Oswald simply see an opportunity and take advantage of it?

Was he supposed to have a ride waiting on a side street and when he got there the ride was nowhere around, leaving him to his own resources? Is that why he took a bus home because he had no car? How did he get to the shooting range he went to to practice rapid firing accuracy, as there were reports that he did? Did he take the bus and did he take his rifle on the bus with him? Was there a bus that went to the rifle range?

Did his visit to Mexico City to visit the Soviet consulate or Embassy or whatever he visited there have any connection? If the Soviets were involved because of the Cuban missile crisis, how would that have affected relations?

There are clearly more questions than answers, like who paid for his trip to Mexico?.

 

[jwitten82]

[youtube]UFpPjjKdUds[/youtube]
I always thought this was interesting

 

[arglebargle]

Apparantly Bugliosi's "Reclaiming History" is the cornerstone book for debunking JFK assassination conspiracy theories. At 1500 pages and a CD of fifteen volumes of info, it should be.

Haven't read it myself, but it gets high marks for arguementation and thoroughness.


Interesting questions there notherbob....

 

[Kangaroo]

Oswald was not a good shot. He barely qualified. No one was able to show that he had done any serious practice before that day. The weapon used is clunky and not particularly good. A 3006 Springfield would have been a much better weapon. What is not known is that 3 FBI snipers tried to duplicate his shots some years later and none did as well as he did. If he acted alone he was one of the luckiest SOB's around. So one can think its possible. But the weakest part of the acted alone arguement is the magic bullet. As an ammunition inspector and expert for 25 years, that bullet really was magic.

So much of what the Warren commission had to look at had been sanitized. And as has been mentioned many of that commission certainly died not long after and in curious circumstances. There are way too many unanswered questions about how security was allowed to be so relaxed that day and things like that that have made me think for a long time that a conspiracy is much more likely than what the warren commission claimed.

many other people have duplicated the shots with the same rifle and had no issues. Even myth buster had a guy that was able to make the 3 shots with the rifle in the time allotted and at the angles.

So I do not buy the other gunman theory

 

[hutch1254]

Great topic / thread. A subject I've been interested in for years. I've read a few books on it and I plan on reading the Brothers book as well.

As for the basics of my opinions:

• I don't think Oswald acted alone.

• I do think there was another gunman, whether it be on the grassy knoll or another building that someone suggested in a book that talked about a triangular shooting formation.
• I don't think Cuba was involved at all.
• I think the CIA was involved.
• I don't think the mafia was a primary player but I think the CIA may have "borrowed" players used by the mafia to help orchestrate. In a worst case scenario of plan failure the CIA could just haul in the mafia related players and easily blame them instead of having some of their own boys get caught in a "what the hell are you doing here?" scenario.

If I remember correctly J. Edgar Hoover hated JFK and who knows what dirt that guy had on him.

Also, did anyone see the 2 hour documentary on History channel or Discovery on the hours after the assassination? It primarily ran through the events after the hospital through the next 48 hours or so. I found the whole interaction of LBJ and RFK on the plane as the coffin came on board amazing. Also, the plane half pro LBJ half pro RFK had to have some severe intensity.

I have a feeling someone somewhere with some decent knowledge of the situation has something written and tucked away. It will come out in a will after their death or be stumbled upon.

Finally, Jackie standing there while LBJ is being sworn in is just a stunning moment in time. Going into detail about it does no justice. Just look.

 

[CowboyDan]

[youtube]UFpPjjKdUds[/youtube]
I always thought this was interesting

That is very interesting indeed. Although JFK was notorious for giving his agents fits as he would walk right up to a crowd of people and wade through them. He loved to meet people and be right in the thick of the crowd. So who knows if this was a request from him or something more trecherous. Interesting though.
By the way, RFK carried that same fearlessness, even after JFK's assasination. People close to him got the sense that he felt he was destined to be killed like his brother was, and he didn't shy away from it.....almost invited it. Teddy Kennedy was quite the opposite of this. He would even take different routes to his office just in case there was someone trying to ambush him.

 

[burmafrd]

many other people have duplicated the shots with the same rifle and had no issues. Even myth buster had a guy that was able to make the 3 shots with the rifle in the time allotted and at the angles.

So I do not buy the other gunman theory

How much practice had they had before they did it?

No pressure, eh?

They were already visualizing it when they did it- which also helps.

Oswald had a hard time qualifying. They have NEVER found ANY evidence that he did any practice shooting before the day. The RIFLE was shown to have been with very little wear, indicating it had not been used much.

Personally I think Oswald was the fall guy and they had a backup ready to act.

 

[notherbob]

If you want an interesting conspiracy theory, answer me these questions - Which came first, Oswald's job at the School Book Depository or the announcement of the motorcade route. How long had Oswald been working there when the motorcade route was announced or did his job start after the route had been determined. Who determined the route? Was this purely coincidental? Did Oswald simply see an opportunity and take advantage of it?

Was he supposed to have a ride waiting on a side street and when he got there the ride was nowhere around, leaving him to his own resources? Is that why he took a bus home because he had no car? How did he get to the shooting range he went to to practice rapid firing accuracy, as there were reports that he did? Did he take the bus and did he take his rifle on the bus with him? Was there a bus that went to the rifle range?

Did his visit to Mexico City to visit the Soviet consulate or Embassy or whatever he visited there have any connection? If the Soviets were involved because of the Cuban missile crisis, how would that have affected relations?

There are clearly more questions than answers, like who paid for his trip to Mexico?.

Never mind, I have answered my own questions by googling and came across the answers in this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Harvey_Oswald

I'm satisfied Oswald was a nut who acted alone. I'm also satisfied he was the one who assinated Kennedy.

If the feds are covering up anything, I doubt it's anything significant. There were certainly plenty of intriguing circumstances here but I believe they were entirely circumstantial. I think he did plan it himself on the spur of the moment when the newspapers published the motorcade route and it went right by his window and that does not seem to me to be out of his character.

He finally got the publicity he sought. We all remember who he was and he did change history and he certainly wasn't the only nut who did, just one more in a long list.

 

[Kangaroo]

How much practice had they had before they did it?

No pressure, eh?

They were already visualizing it when they did it- which also helps.

Oswald had a hard time qualifying. They have NEVER found ANY evidence that he did any practice shooting before the day. The RIFLE was shown to have been with very little wear, indicating it had not been used much.

Personally I think Oswald was the fall guy and they had a backup ready to act.

That has nothing to do with the price in tea in China people do bad at qualifying in the Army and deer hunt and get kills. I spent time in the Military barely qualifying has nothing to do with being able to make those shoots

 

[Cajuncowboy]

i have always been fascinated by the JFK assassination. I have read many books and have watched countless hours of documentaries on the subject so this thread is something I really enjoy. Thanks for making it Hos.

As for what I think happened, I think there were two shooters. Oswald and someone in the grassy knoll. I had a high school science teacher who was into this and kinda got me started on all of this. One of the reasons I believe in the grassy knoll shooter is that one of the experiments he did was with four types of rifles and cantaloupes.

At the approximate same distance as Kennedy was from Oswald he fired a single shot with each rifle into a melon.

Each shot fired caused the melon to explode forward with the "exit wound" being larger than the entrance wound. So if there was no second shooter Kennedy's head would have snapped forward and exploded forward, not backwards. (I know everyone is thinking Kevin Costner here).

Only explanation I have ever heard that would cause this is a very specific type of ammunition that could not have been fried from Oswald's rifle.

Yeah, I think there was a conspiracy. Yeah I think there was a cocktail of bad guys involved. I think in order to kill the President and get away with it it would take some major players. My guess is..

The Cubans and the mob both wanted him dead. I think they worked with the soviets to facilitate this through Oswald and set him up to take the fall (become the patsy).

And I would assume that the mob had bought off enough people on the Warren commission to cover the deed up.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

I would actually have to visit the site of the book depository and get both sides of the argument to form a concrete decision.

The problem with conspiracy theories is that more often than not, we only really hear the conspiracy side of things or the conspiracy side of things gets the most airtime.

My feelings at this moment was that it wasn't a coverup by the Warren Commission, but Oswald probably didn't act alone and the Warren Commission never figured it out. But I think Oswald probably wasn't a part of anything big, just another nut who had the opportunity to do something terrible.

I find most conspiracy theories to be ludicrous anyway. I think when it comes to true conspiracies, it's almost always in regards to money...so things like scams, price fixing, etc. Not murder.





YR