Judge Says Native Americans Waited Too Long to Sue Commanders Over Name

[speedkilz88]

If this is the same speedkilz, you're running circles around them over there at Extremeskins.

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251196&page=2&pp=15

Nope, not me.

 

[Skinsmaniac]

There are two points I'd like to make: 1. The government should not be in the business of deciding what is and isn't offensive. 2. Everything is offensive to someone, so being offensive does not in and of itself make something wrong or unacceptable. You should look at the intent of the speaker. Commanders fans aren't trying to insult Native Americans when they use the term. That's because for us the meaning of the term has changed and doesn't even refer to Native Americans anymore. Joe Gibbs, Art Monk, and Darrell Green are all Commanders. Geronimo is not. If you are in the supermarket and you hear the word "Commanders," what is your first thought? That the people are talking about Native Americans or the football team? The meaning of words change, and for most people "Commanders" now means the football team. I think that's why most Native Americans don't find the name offensive - because in the context of the football team it is not meant to disparage them. (SI did a survey of Native Americans and reported that most were not offended by the name - don't know how scientific the survey was).

 

[bbgun]

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." --Eleanor Roosevelt

"Shut your yap." --Franklin Roosevelt

 

[speedkilz88]

There are two points I'd like to make: 1. The government should not be in the business of deciding what is and isn't offensive. 2. Everything is offensive to someone, so being offensive does not in and of itself make something wrong or unacceptable. You should look at the intent of the speaker. Commanders fans aren't trying to insult Native Americans when they use the term. That's because for us the meaning of the term has changed and doesn't even refer to Native Americans anymore. Joe Gibbs, Art Monk, and Darrell Green are all Commanders. Geronimo is not. If you are in the supermarket and you hear the word "Commanders," what is your first thought? That the people are talking about Native Americans or the football team? The meaning of words change, and for most people "Commanders" now means the football team. I think that's why most Native Americans don't find the name offensive - because in the context of the football team it is not meant to disparage them. (SI did a survey of Native Americans and reported that most were not offended by the name - don't know how scientific the survey was).

So is that Gibbs, Monk, or Green on the side of the helmet? Or is that Geronimo?

 

[theogt]

I will repeat a challenge I have made to several Commanders fans. If you don't think the name is offensive, please come to Arizona to visit me and I will take you out to one of the reservations. Please walk up to a group of our native Americans and say "hello Commanders" just as friendly as you can. I will watch.

None of them have ever taken me up on my offer. Wonder why if it isn't offensive as they claim.

The term "black" isn't offensive, but if you went up to a group of black people and said "Hello blacks!" you'd probably offend them as well.

Of course, if you had a team called the Washington Blacks, that'd be pretty offensive too.

 

[Skinsmaniac]

So is that Gibbs, Monk, or Green on the side of the helmet? Or is that Geronimo?

I'd have no problem getting rid of the decal and the headdresses in the band and all that. There was a time when the name referred to Native Americans but I think over time its meaning has changed.

 

[peplaw06]

I'd have no problem getting rid of the decal and the headdresses in the band and all that. There was a time when the name referred to Native Americans but I think over time it's meaning has changed.

So what does it refer to now?

 

[Skinsmaniac]

The term "black" isn't offensive, but if you went up to a group of black people and said "Hello blacks!" you'd probably offend them as well.

Of course, if you had a team called the Washington Blacks, that'd be pretty offensive too.

The New Zealand rugby team is the "all blacks" but I doubt anyone finds that offensive because it's obvious it's not meant as a derogatory term and doesn't refer to skin color at all. Context is everything.

 

[Skinsmaniac]

So what does it refer to now?

The players, the fans, the organization as a whole. That's why when I hear the word "Commanders" i think of the team, not native americans.

 

[speedkilz88]

I don't see how it could be possible for a time limit to be something that regards race relations. I do not think the should be able to get money however a change in names should be warranted. O well hopefully they will apeal this decision.

But thats where the problem lies, they chose to file a lawsuit over their trademark rights.(trying to get the trademark revoked) If trademark law says their is a time limit than thats what the decision should be, better than legislating from the bench because the judge wants to do the right thing. Reminds me of the old saying about the path to hell is paved with good intentions. Even if they had won it wouldn't necessarily of made the Commanders change the name it just would have cost them a lot of money since anyone could then use their logo and name without permission or compensation.

 

[theogt]

From what I can tell the legal ruling is sound. The statute of limitations runs from the filing of the trademark apparently.

It's not helpful to say that a person born 1 year ago shouldn't be prevented from challenging a trademark because he wasn't around when the statute of limitations passed. Otherwise there'd be no reason to have any statute of limitation at all, since it could be perpetually challenged every time a new plaintiff is born.

 

[peplaw06]

The players, the fans, the organization as a whole. That's why when I hear the word "Commanders" i think of the team, not native americans.

Ridiculous.

You may think of the team, but the term Commander isn't simply a reference to the team. If it was offensive at its inception, it wouldn't stop being offensive simply because it's been around a while.

 

[Skinsmaniac]

Ridiculous.

You may think of the team, but the term Commander isn't simply a reference to the team. If it was offensive at its inception, it wouldn't stop being offensive simply because it's been around a while.

That's where we disagree. The meaning of words can change, become offensive or inoffensive. But even if someone is actually offended by a word doesn't mean that it is inappropriate to use a word. You have to look at the intent of the speaker.

 

[peplaw06]

That's where we disagree. The meaning of words can change, become offensive or inoffensive. But even if someone is actually offended by a word doesn't mean that it is inappropriate to use a word. You have to look at the intent of the speaker.

Yeah, cause the intent of the speaker is always what you look to when someone says something offensive ........... /sarcasm.

Did you buy Don Imus' explanations for his comments on Rutgers and Adam Jones?

And whose intent are you looking to? Wouldn't the intent of the person who coined the team's name be the most relevant intent? Why then would you argue that the meaning has changed over time? It's not as if Dan Snyder's intent is the most telling, because he didn't create the name.

Weren't the Commanders the last team in the NFL to have an African-American player on the team? Think that racist mentality existed when they created the team name? I'm guessing you don't.

 

[Skinsmaniac]

If I refer to someone as African-American and someone gets offended because the term doesn't differentiate between people from different parts of Africa, have I done something wrong?

The intent you would look it is the person using the term. Obviously the term "Jew" can be offensive or inoffensive depending on the context of when it was used - you wouldn't look back thousands of years to try and figure out when it was first used.

Weren't the Commanders the last team in the NFL to have an African-American player on the team? Think that racist mentality existed when they created the team name? I'm guessing you don't.

It may or may not. But what's for certain is that a racist owner in the 1960s does not make other owners or fans of the same team racist. I have heard a story that the name Commanders actually came from the first head coach who was part Native American, but I'm not sure if that's true.

 

[links18]

Funny, they changed the name of DC's NBA team a few years back from "The Bullets" to "The Wizards", because it was considered politically incorrect to name a team after something that has killed so many DC residents over the years. Yet, there is not even a discussion about changing the Commanders name ever brought up.

 

[ThreeSportStar80]

That's complete B.S. honestly, that's a ridiculous ruling... Commanders is a racial slur if there ever was such, that's just like calling a black man the "n" word or a white man "crack--" let's be real.

 

[cowheel]

That's because for us the meaning of the term has changed and doesn't even refer to Native Americans anymore. Joe Gibbs, Art Monk, and Darrell Green are all Commanders. Geronimo is not. If you are in the supermarket and you hear the word "Commanders," what is your first thought? That the people are talking about Native Americans or the football team? The meaning of words change, and for most people "Commanders" now means the football team.

...something about that little Indian face being on the side of the helmet destroys this ridiculous argument.

That dude looks nothing like Art Monk OR Darrell Green.

And who other than Native Americans have the right to determine what they should or shouldn't be offended by?

But I DO know if I were Native American... the term "Commanders" would be just as offensive to me as "Colored" is to me -being an African American.

It is a racially insensitive term that the OWNER of the organization should have changed a long time ago out of pure common decensy...

much the same way they stopped showing those racially insensitive Bugs Bunny cartoons and Little Rascals episodes on Saturday & Sunday mornings.

It's really like a HUGE slap in the face...

"We killed off most of your people and stole all of your land... but we'll make it up to you by naming a lot of our sports teams after you.
Including the football team in the nations capital!"

It's ridiculous and oh so disrespectful... and shameful.

 

[Skinsmaniac]

.And who other than Native Americans have the right to determine what they should or shouldn't be offended by?

I'm not saying they should or shouldn't be offended by it. Some are and some aren't. But there's nothing wrong with offending someone if you aren't trying to hurt them.

 

[cowheel]

If I refer to someone as African-American and someone gets offended because the term doesn't differentiate between people from different parts of Africa, have I done something wrong?

The intent you would look it is the person using the term. Obviously the term "Jew" can be offensive or inoffensive depending on the context of when it was used - you wouldn't look back thousands of years to try and figure out when it was first used.


It may or may not. But what's for certain is that a racist owner in the 1960s does not make other owners or fans of the same team racist. I have heard a story that the name Commanders actually came from the first head coach who was part Native American, but I'm not sure if that's true.

You're comparing the term African American to the term "Commander"?
lol...you serious.

Nah.. Native American is comparable to African American.

"Commander" is more comparable to the term "colored".

And I don't care what the "intent" is... if some team names themselves the Louisiana Colored Boys... we got a problem.