Adult Language Lions WR Amon-Ra St. Brown and Cowboys CB Jourdan Lewis trading barbs; Cowboys host Lions Week 6

Chasing6

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I saw everything and know what everyone claimed afterwards. No one "tries" to report. Either they do or they don't. 68 makes a sign and clearly talks to the ref. 70 makes a more demonstrative sign but says he didn't say anything. The NFL posted a video that says there needs to be a physical AND verbal signal to the ref when you report. 68 did that. The ref saw 70's physical sign and assumed, not following the league's own rule on it. That's why he ignored a question about what 68 said to him afterwards. You continue to not address that fact too. Who does that unless it's inconvenient or is trying to hide a mistake?
So "you" could hear 68 and "you"'could see 70 not verbally communicate???

How about this one, why did they meet with the ref's about this play before the game? Because it was a premeditated attempt to distract, confuse or disguise the play which is agains the rules.

Lastly, the Referee announced over the load speaker number 70 has reported eligible.

So in that situation. You believe Dallas should have covered 68??? Give me a break.
 

MarcusRock

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So "you" could hear 68 and "you"'could see 70 not verbally communicate???

How about this one, why did they meet with the ref's about this play before the game? Because it was a premeditated attempt to distract, confuse or disguise the play which is agains the rules.

Lastly, the Referee announced over the load speaker number 70 has reported eligible.

So in that situation. You believe Dallas should have covered 68??? Give me a break.
Don't know if you're being intentionally obtuse but you sure as Hades are avoiding my comment about the ref avoiding a direct question after the game to the tune of 3 or 4 times now. WHy haven't you addressed that?

You asked me to watch the video. Did you? 68 clearly communicates to the ref in both a physical and verbal way. He says his verbal was to report as eligible. 70 clearly made a physical sign. He says he never said anything to the ref. The rule by the NFL's own posting of a video states a physical and verbal sign is required. If players are to be believed, we see 68 do that. I haven't seen a reverse angle that shows 70 said nothing but he never even made it to the ref before the ref declared him as reporting and went to tell the defense. And if they met with the refs before the game and it was against the rules to do what they attempted, the refs would have said so at that meeting right?

So for the 4th (or 5th) time, why do you think the ref avoided a direct question about what 68 said to him? Is that not just a little suspicious given what the actual rule requirements are?
 

MarcusRock

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The referee does two things when a player reports as eligible.

They announce it stadium-wide and they walk over to the defense and tell them specifically the number that is eligible.

That's the point so many people are missing. They assume it would "trick" the defense but the only way it would work if reported correctly would be if the defense completely blew the assignment, which would be no different than blowing any defensive assignment, not just one related to eligible receivers.

The truth is that it only worked because the referee told the defense the wrong player was eligible.

As I said, I am all for teams trying to find creative ways (aka: loopholes) in the rules to gain an advantage, but the NFL specifically focused on personnel trickery years ago which is why they started cracking down a lot more on too many players in the huddle, interrupting an offense ready to snap the ball to allow the defense time to adjust for offensive substitutions and of course handling non-eligible players reporting as eligible.

This is just one of those areas where the NFL rules are so strict that there is really no room to "trick" anyone.

The best you can hope for is a blown assignment by the defense and there are several ways teams try to make that happen every game.

The NFL has refined their rules to make success more about player skill and play execution than manipulation.

When a team is down near the goal line and/or going for 2 points, the defense is going to focus heavily on every eligible receiver.

If the Cowboys had been told the right number, then there would have been at least two defensive players whose assignment was to cover them, including one on the line and one in the secondary.

The referees announced the wrong number to both the stadium and the defense and that caused the Cowboys to focus on the wrong player which allowed the play to work.

Now, would it have worked if the referee announced the correct number? It's possible, but only for the same reason any conversion play works in the NFL which is usually due to blown assignments or bad execution by one or more defensive players.

As it is though, the Cowboys were told to guard the wrong player and they did guard the wrong player so it is not surprising at all that it worked to a player they were not covering.
That is it exactly. Catch the Cowboys defense napping in a pivotal moment of a big game. No assumption of it working, but just try it and see. You think our reputation of shrinking in big moments is only held by this fanbase? And as I failed to recall from the other poster, the Lions met with the refs prior to the game about this. If it were banned, I'm sure they'd have been told so. The Lions were mad because the refs flipped the script in the actual game. As the other poster has been avoiding, why would the ref avoid a question about what was said to him by the other players prior to 70 running out there and not even reaching the ref before being declared eligible? Forget about whether it would have worked on the field or not. That's not my point here. My point is the refs appeared to not follow their own stated rules and then had a ref avoid a question about it in the post-game presser. But folks are saying the refs got it right but also don't want to discuss the particulars. You have to know that to me in particular, that is hilarious that refs are both crooked and clean depending on who benefits.
 

CowboyFrog

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The refs reported who they thought the offense was declaring..thats the rule, if there is any bungle on how clear the reporting was ..THATS ON THE OFFENSE not the refs..report clearly and the refs cant report the wrong guy....
 

MarcusRock

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The refs reported who they thought the offense was declaring..thats the rule, if there is any bungle on how clear the reporting was ..THATS ON THE OFFENSE not the refs..report clearly and the refs cant report the wrong guy....
Then why not tell the Lions what they attempted was wrong in the pre-game meeting that was held with them about this? If they were told it was wrong they wouldn't have attempted it, obviously. The ref either forgot the meeting or he wilted under pressure in the moment and then avoided a question about it after the game. You think that's not going to cause controversy? It caused so much that ref's crew was disinvited to playoff work. We all know if the reverse had been true, call options on tinfoil would have gone through the roof, lol.
 

Chasing6

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Don't know if you're being intentionally obtuse but you sure as Hades are avoiding my comment about the ref avoiding a direct question after the game to the tune of 3 or 4 times now. WHy haven't you addressed that?

You asked me to watch the video. Did you? 68 clearly communicates to the ref in both a physical and verbal way. He says his verbal was to report as eligible. 70 clearly made a physical sign. He says he never said anything to the ref. The rule by the NFL's own posting of a video states a physical and verbal sign is required. If players are to be believed, we see 68 do that. I haven't seen a reverse angle that shows 70 said nothing but he never even made it to the ref before the ref declared him as reporting and went to tell the defense. And if they met with the refs before the game and it was against the rules to do what they attempted, the refs would have said so at that meeting right?

So for the 4th (or 5th) time, why do you think the ref avoided a direct question about what 68 said to him? Is that not just a little suspicious given what the actual rule requirements are?
Since when do Ref's have press conferences and answer questions to their decisions after the game???

Why does it matter what the players think they did or did not do? If a tree falls in a forest does it make a sound?

The rule clearly states it is up to the player(the player's responsibility) to properly communicate to the official. If 1 player report's eligible, then a second player reports eligible, then what? Why send 3 tackles to the Ref when the rule is to send only the reporting player?

I wonder why the NFL has a rule that the Official must announce over the loud speaker who exactly has reported as an illegible player? It is because they don't want confusion, and that is exactly what Detroit was trying to create. Same reason the met with an official before the game.

If you can't comprehend that this was intentionally designed to confuse the Cowboys and apparently the Ref's then I can't help you.

I wonder how many teams meet with the Ref's before the game to let them know we maybe having a tackle report eligible???
 
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CowboyFrog

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Then why not tell the Lions what they attempted was wrong in the pre-game meeting that was held with them about this? If they were told it was wrong they wouldn't have attempted it, obviously. The ref either forgot the meeting or he wilted under pressure in the moment and then avoided a question about it after the game. You think that's not going to cause controversy? It caused so much that ref's crew was disinvited to playoff work. We all know if the reverse had been true, call options on tinfoil would have gone through the roof, lol.
if the Lions knew they had called the wrong guy eligible then why not stop the play? It seemed that what the lions wanted was the refs to report one guy and let the other guy remain eligible which is against the rules.
 

MarcusRock

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if the Lions knew they had called the wrong guy eligible then why not stop the play? It seemed that what the lions wanted was the refs to report one guy and let the other guy remain eligible which is against the rules.
Someone on the sideline should have. The players are locked in on what they need to do. No, the Lions wanted the refs to report one guy and catch the Cowboys napping on the number confusion of 58, 68 and also throwing in 70 who usually reports. No rule against that and if it wasn't allowed, the ref should have told them in the meeting they had about that topic before the game. It seems to me the refs said it was fine to do and then did an about face in the actual game. So yeah, I'd be mad too if I were them. The refs didn't follow their own rules or honor their blessing they gave before the game even started.
 

CowboyFrog

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Someone on the sideline should have. The players are locked in on what they need to do. No, the Lions wanted the refs to report one guy and catch the Cowboys napping on the number confusion of 58, 68 and also throwing in 70 who usually reports. No rule against that and if it wasn't allowed, the ref should have told them in the meeting they had about that topic before the game. It seems to me the refs said it was fine to do and then did an about face in the actual game. So yeah, I'd be mad too if I were them. The refs didn't follow their own rules or honor their blessing they gave before the game even started.
i dont think any rule was broken like i said the defense covered the guy who the refs reported, everyone just assumes the defense wouldn't have covered the other guy if the refs reported him which i think is highly unlikey. That plan was bad from the start and to me the Lions dropped the ball by not stopping the play...everything else is pure speculation to be honest.
 

Chasing6

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i dont think any rule was broken like i said the defense covered the guy who the refs reported, everyone just assumes the defense wouldn't have covered the other guy if the refs reported him which i think is highly unlikey. That plan was bad from the start and to me the Lions dropped the ball by not stopping the play...everything else is pure speculation to be honest.
100% correct.

Why would a defense cover an ineligible WR?

Should we have covered their Center as well?
 

MarcusRock

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i dont think any rule was broken like i said the defense covered the guy who the refs reported, everyone just assumes the defense wouldn't have covered the other guy if the refs reported him which i think is highly unlikey. That plan was bad from the start and to me the Lions dropped the ball by not stopping the play...everything else is pure speculation to be honest.
Yeah, my take is not about what would have happened on the field. We have no way of knowing. It was a low percentage gamble but with the Cowboys' history, you have to try it. To me it's about the refs ignoring their own rules, a pre-game meeting on the rules, and a ref avoiding a question about the play itself. Then of course, it's about CowboysZone turning into ref lovers when they call them biased all the other times, lol.
 

CowboyFrog

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Yeah, my take is not about what would have happened on the field. We have no way of knowing. It was a low percentage gamble but with the Cowboys' history, you have to try it. To me it's about the refs ignoring their own rules, a pre-game meeting on the rules, and a ref avoiding a question about the play itself. Then of course, it's about CowboysZone turning into ref lovers when they call them biased all the other times, lol.
do we know the refs broke from the pre-game meeting? Maybe i missed that (or dont recall it), seriously. But what if the refs said during the pre game meeting "Im good with it as long as the reporting follows these guidelines" and the lions didnt follow them...are we sure thats what happeneed?
 

Chasing6

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Yeah, my take is not about what would have happened on the field. We have no way of knowing. It was a low percentage gamble but with the Cowboys' history, you have to try it. To me it's about the refs ignoring their own rules, a pre-game meeting on the rules, and a ref avoiding a question about the play itself. Then of course, it's about CowboysZone turning into ref lovers when they call them biased all the other times, lol.
Why was there a pre game meeting about a routine play that happens multiple times a game???

Do we have pre game meetings for extra points?
 

MarcusRock

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do we know the refs broke from the pre-game meeting? Maybe i missed that, seriously. But what if the refs said during the pre game meeting "Im good with it as long as the reporting follows these guidelines" and the lions didnt follow them...are we sure thats what happeneed?
Why would the Lions be so angry like they were? Seems they thought they had an agreement on what they'd do. Based on what the coach and players have said, it's easy to piece together what they were trying to do and because of the reporting rules they tried to clear it with the refs before the game. There's really nothing else it could be unless folks have ideas. Why does the ref avoid a question about what went down with 58 and 68 approaching him? No one is touching that one on this board.
 

CowboyFrog

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Why would the Lions be so angry like they were? Seems they thought they had an agreement on what they'd do. Based on what the coach and players have said, it's easy to piece together what they were trying to do and because of the reporting rules they tried to clear it with the refs before the game. There's really nothing else it could be unless folks have ideas. Why does the ref avoid a question about what went down with 58 and 68 approaching him? No one is touching that one on this board.
I mean now we are saying anytime a coach and players from a team who feel they got jobbed by the refs are correct.. as i said we dont know that happened it would be speculation..the refs could've have laid out very clear rules on how they wanted it reported and it didnt happen so the ref called it the way he did on the field...thats is just as likley as the the ref deciding to job the Lions to me. And as i have said many times i will happily admit im for the calls going my way anytime, they go against enough not gonna give the ones that go my way back...
 

MarcusRock

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I mean now we are saying anytime a coach and players from a team who feel they got jobbed by the refs are correct.. as i said we dont know that happened it would be speculation..the refs could've have laid out very clear rules on how they wanted it reported and it didnt happen so the ref called it the way he did on the field...thats is just as likley as the the ref deciding to job the Lions to me. And as i have said many times i will happily admit im for the calls going my way anytime, they go against enough not gonna give the ones that go my way back...
The telling part is the ref avoiding a question about it after the game. If the rules are clear, state them and why the Lions were in violation of them, but don't avoid what your role was. Also telling that afterwards that crew was taken out of the playoff rotation.
 
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