MLB Offseason thread

[Tabascocat]

Sorry... 1B should be at the bottom of the barrel.


Bill James is the father of sabermetrics.

Yall are ignoring the presence of an elite catcher in there...............

I would take a stud catcher over the 2Baseman or CFielder on most days.

 

[Trouty]

Gotta agree with you here......Altuve, Correa, plus for Trout is a non-starter

More like ABergman-SS, Kyle Tucker-OF, Whitely-2016#1 pick, Derek Fisher-OF

No way in hell does this land Mike Trout, Night.

As i've said, no team is willing to depart with what it would take to land Trout.

 

[Trouty]

Yall are ignoring the presence of an elite catcher in there...............

I would take a stud catcher over the 2Baseman or CFielder on most days.

We have an elite D catcher. The last truly elite, pure C, on both sides of the plate, was Pudge, so they are rare. But I take a CF/SS/2B all day, everyday.

 

[Tabascocat]

We have an elite D catcher. The last truly elite, pure C, on both sides of the plate, was Pudge, so they are rare. But I take a CF/SS/2B all day, everyday.

Like I said, I would take Pudge over every SS/2Bman and CFielder not named Trout in this decade

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Yall are ignoring the presence of an elite catcher in there...............

I would take a stud catcher over the 2Baseman or CFielder on most days.

P and C are disregarded simply because they are involved in just about every play and the defensive skill set required of catcher is so radically different from any other on the team.

 

[Trouty]

Like I said, I would take Pudge over every SS/2Bman and CFielder not named Trout in this decade

I dont blame ya, Dex. Pudge was my generation's Johnny Bench

 

[Trouty]

P and C are disregarded simply because they are involved in just about every play and the defensive skill set required of catcher is so radically different from any other on the team.

Well put, Mike. 'S'actly.

 

[Tabascocat]

P and C are disregarded simply because they are involved in just about every play and the defensive skill set required of catcher is so radically different from any other on the team.

I can see that but C is considered part of the middle defense. From my experience playing at every level, a stud catcher is more vital(hard to find) than a good fielder up the middle. You can find guys who are really good in Center, SS and 2nd who are more than adequate to win with.

Get that once a generational catcher.........it substantially changes things for the better.

If some want to exclude the catcher for this convo, then I rank the importance to SS > CF > 2nd on average. This, of course, excludes players like Trout, Ripken, etc who tip the scales

 

[MichaelWinicki]

I can see that but C is considered part of the middle defense. From my experience playing at every level, a stud catcher is more vital(hard to find) than a good fielder up the middle. You can find guys who are really good in Center, SS and 2nd who are more than adequate to win with.

Get that once a generational catcher.........it substantially changes things for the better.

If some want to exclude the catcher for this convo, then I rank the importance to SS > CF > 2nd on average. This, of course, excludes players like Trout, Ripken, etc who tip the scales

SS - 2B - CF - 3B - RF - LF - 1B

The idea of the scale is that most players can move to the right, and often do due to age, it's far more difficult to more to the left.

A Correa or Altuve could probably go out and play CF and do it at a better overall level than say Trout could at SS or 2B.

 

[Trouty]

SS - 2B - CF - 3B - RF - LF - 1B

The idea of the scale is that most players can move to the right, and often do due to age, it's far more difficult to more to the left.

A Correa or Altuve could probably go out and play CF and do it at a better overall level than say Trout could at SS or 2B.

Well, yes, of course. But they would be over their heads, still. CF is no easy position. Trout just makes it look easy. His reads on the ball are remarkable, hence all of his HR robbing catches. That isn't only hops. It's also timing and diagnosing the trajectory of the ball. His dives are magnificent, too. His only minus, that hurts his dWar, is his arm.

I do agree that the adjustments from CF to 2B or SS would be less to grasp than moving from SS/2B to CF

 

[Trouty]

Still, the gap in talent and transcendency between Trout, and, say, Altuve, Harper, Machado, Donaldson, Bryant fills up the Grand Canyon.

Please, baseball fans, don't be disingenuous. I know that Altuve just won a Chip. So did Salmon. Erstad. Glaus. Speizio. GA. Fulmer.

Altuve doesn't hold a candle to Trout, much less a matchstick.

Altuve and Co just play for a better owner/org

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Well, yes, of course. But they would be over their heads, still. CF is no easy position. Trout just makes it look easy. His reads on the ball are remarkable, hence all of his HR robbing catches. That isn't only hops. It's also timing and diagnosing the trajectory of the ball. His dives are magnificent, too. His only minus, that hurts his dWar, is his arm.

I do agree that the adjustments from CF to 2B or SS would be less to grasp than moving from SS/2B to CF

I noticed Trout had a negative defensive WAR in '17.

 

[Trouty]

I noticed Trout had a negative defensive WAR in '17.

Yeah. It's bulljive, Mike. We watch him everyday. Yeah, he doesn't have an arm like Guerrero or Mondesi, but he is all over the field.

When you mentioned the flaw in WAR earlier, I did reconnoiter Trout's bulljive bWAR and fWAR on D.

I guess he gets a negative dWAR because of his arm and that he doesn't have 10-20 assists a season? It's bull ****. No CF comes close to having the range that Trout does.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Still, the gap in talent and transcendency between Trout, and, say, Altuve, Harper, Machado, Donaldson, Bryant fills up the Grand Canyon.

Please, baseball fans, don't be disingenuous. I know that Altuve just won a Chip. So did Salmon. Erstad. Glaus. Speizio. GA. Fulmer.

Altuve doesn't hold a candle to Trout, much less a matchstick.

Altuve and Co just play for a better owner/org

I think you're going to find Carlos Correa not far from Trout this season when it comes to WAR. He wasn't in '17, with both playing about the same number of games.

You're probably going to have to start acknowledging Mike Trout and Carlos Correa as the best players in the game.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Yeah. It's bulljive, Mike. We watch him everyday. Yeah, he doesn't have an arm like Guerrero or Mondesi, but he is all over the field.

When you mentioned the flaw in WAR earlier, I did reconnoiter Trout's bulljive bWAR and fWAR on D.

I guess he gets a negative dWAR because of his arm and that he doesn't have 10-20 assists a season?

Agreed on the arm thing.

 

[Trouty]

I think you're going to find Carlos Correa not far from Trout this season when it comes to WAR. He wasn't in '17, with both playing about the same number of games.

You're probably going to have to start acknowledging Mike Trout and Carlos Correa as the best players in the game.

I'm giving you a like out of pity, Mike. (not that you damned need it with the Chip and all )

Correa and Trout in the same sentence? You mean in '18, as in "the new Mike Trout" that we hear every year (mind you, Altuve has been a constant), or over the course of their careers? What was Correa projected as, WAR-wise, before his injury? Trout would've topped 12.

You really think Correa is a phenom, transcendent ballplayer?

Trout has been doing what he does since he was 19-20.

 

[Nightman]

Boy you think Arrieta would go for 3/36?

Probably not ...... that is what the Yanks can offer a SP and still get under the Luxury Tax

They have about 27m to spare right now, all in

 

[MichaelWinicki]

I'm giving you a like out of pity, Mike. (not that you damned need it with the Chip and all )

Correa and Trout in the same sentence? You mean in '18, as in "the new Mike Trout" that we hear every year (mind you, Altuve has been a constant), or over the course of their careers? What was Correa projected as, WAR-wise, before his injury? Trout would've topped 12.

You really think Correa is a phenom, transcendent ballplayer?

Trout has been doing what he does since he was 19-20.

In 2017 Trout had a 6.7 WAR in 114 games.

Correa had a 6.3 WAR in 109 games.

Not a big difference.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Also I've noticed that Trout's starting to pack on the poundage a little... He's probably going to start having that "Prince Fielder" shape too him by the time he's 30.

 

[Trouty]

In 2017 Trout had a 6.7 WAR in 114 games.

Correa had a 6.3 WAR in 109 games.

Not a big difference.

Okay, okay. Mike!!! Grrr!!

What was Correa and Trout's WAR when Trout went out? Trout was easily number one. I don't remember the exact number, but I don't think Correa was top-5 at that point. And I was following Trout's stats VS the league, as I always do.

It's a tad (I don't want to use the word disingenuous) off (for lack of a better term) to use either of these players 2017 stats against each other. Trout came back and struggled per his excellence, I don't know what Correa did or how he performed once he returned, admittedly.