More criticism of Julius Jones

[Cowboy4ever]

I'm sorry I have no agenda against Jones. I want improvement in the running game (I guess you could consider than my agenda). If you can't understand that then there is no need to continue with this. I supported Jones from the get go but it became pretty obvious at least to me that this team needs better production from the starting RB position. If Jones can become more consistent in his performance then great, this is nothing personal. As for your last comments I don't get annoyed with other opinions if you think Jones is the man great, if you want to believe that Parcells was the reason why Jones was less than stellar then that is your view but one I don't agree with and considering this board allows for different opinion I'll continue to state mine.

I agree,, you have every right to your own opinion, no matter how wrong it is

But seriously.. the only problem I have with anything you are saying, is that you totally disregard BP history with RB when judging JJ. As its been shown, even GREAT Rbs, like CM, are below average under Parcells system. It just can't be the back all the time,, there has to be something about Parcells system that don't allow the backs to really shine.. and you just totally pass that up. I will agree with you there are better backs than JJ,, he does need to step it up this year, which I fully expect him to. But to just say he shouldn't be the starter because you want more production, while totally disregarding the system he was in.. is .. well.. it is what it is JJ has abover average talent, has all the tools and I think can become a very good back,, n ever in the mold of a TD or ES,, but very good. Good enough, I wouldn't draft a RB with a high pick next year.

 

[Champsheart]

What in the world are you babbling about?

Hambrick had one season under Parcells and averaged 3.5 YPC.

Martin had four seasons under Parcells and averaged 3.8 YPC overall -- 4.0, 3.6, 3.5 and 4.0 by season. He wasn't any more effective just because he had a few more carries. He just got a lot of carries.

And Julius might be splitting carries, but he's still had more than 250 in each of the past two seasons -- putting him among the top 15 in rushing attempts in both seasons. And he's always gotten the starter's carries, not the meaningless carries like Hambrick got as Emmitt's backup (under Campo) or the third-and-long, pasing-situation carries that some change-of-pace backs get.

No matter how much you try to ignore it, you can't change the fact since 1986, NOT A SINGLE ONE of Parcells' teams or starting running backs, or any backup with more than 110 carries, ever had a YPC higher than 4.04 -- until Julius came along. And yet, miraculously, those same teams and/or running backs were almost always able to post higher YPC averages before Parcells arrived and after he left.

Curtis Martin averaged 4.0 and 3.6 YPC in his first two years under Parcells. In his third year, under Pete Carroll, he averaged 4.23. In his fourth and fifth years, back under Parcells, he averaged 3.5 and 4.0. In his sixth year and seventh years, under Herm Edwards, he averaged 4.54 and 4.19.

Adrian Murrell averaged 4.15 YPC on 301 carries under Rich Kotite in 1996. The very next season, under Parcells, Murrell rushed 300 times for 3.62 YPC.

The 1990 Giants under Parcells averaged 3.79 YPC. The 1991 Giants under Ray Handley averaged 4.24.

The 1992 Patriots under Dick McPherson averaged 3.70 YPC. The 1993 Patriots under Parcells averaged 3.55 YPC.

The 1996 Patriots under Parcells averaged 3.44 YPC. The 1997 Patriots under Carroll averaged 3.68.

The 1996 Jets under Kotite averaged 3.89 YPC. The 1997 Jets under Parcells averaged 3.45.

The 2002 Cowboys under Dave Campo averaged 4.15 YPC. The 2003 Cowboys under Parcells averaged 3.88.

What an amazing bunch of coincidences, right?

There just aint nothing to say after that. The verdict is in and this opinion wins. Period!

Those who still do not think Julius has some points after reading this, then you have no ability to tell someone when they are right and you are wrong.
Not to mention everything Parcells has said to completely justify what Julius says. This is as easy as going pee (as long as you aint got some problem we dont know about). Nothing more to really think about.

Adam I think you are exactly what this country needs. If you run for President you got my vote.

 

[Cowboy4ever]

There just aint nothing to say after that. The verdict is in and this opinion wins. Period!

Those who still do not think Julius has some points after reading this, then you have no ability to tell someone when they are right and you are wrong.
Not to mention everything Parcells has said to completely justify what Julius says. This is as easy as going pee (as long as you aint got some problem we dont know about). Nothing more to really think about.

Adam I think you are exactly what this country needs. If you run for President you got my vote.

There comes a time when it is no longer an opinion but it becomes fact. I think Adam has shown the facts.. but some people will still continue to argue the point,, as if there was one.

 

[superpunk]

While I admire all the Adam-nut-fondling going on in this thread, people are taking a post that proves one thing (Parcells' teams have consistently lower YPC) and seemingly inferring another (Parcells was forcing Julius Jones to perform poorly). That is not correlation. Parcells prefers a ball-control offense, lower ypc is almost assured with the way he runs it.

But, that does not mean that you can't perform well within that system. Curtis Martin's ypc hovered around 4 with parcells, but he also scored 14 TDs a year, broke some long runs (11 20+ runs in one year) and started his career on fire. Noone could possibly confuse that situation with the one facing Jones. His scouting reports from college say the exact same things we observe today - that he runs up his blocker's backs and is inconsistent. He's remained the same back throughout his college and professional career. It's tough to believe Parcells changed him somehow when he was already having these problems (that we've all observed now - outside of a statistical outlook) in Notre Dame.

You never heard any other Parcells back complaining about their eventual robotization. They just went out, and got things done. After four years, maybe Julius can finally pull that feat off.

 

[Doomsday101]

I agree,, you have every right to your own opinion, no matter how wrong it is

But seriously.. the only problem I have with anything you are saying, is that you totally disregard BP history with RB when judging JJ. As its been shown, even GREAT Rbs, like CM, are below average under Parcells system. It just can't be the back all the time,, there has to be something about Parcells system that don't allow the backs to really shine.. and you just totally pass that up. I will agree with you there are better backs than JJ,, he does need to step it up this year, which I fully expect him to. But to just say he shouldn't be the starter because you want more production, while totally disregarding the system he was in.. is .. well.. it is what it is JJ has abover average talent, has all the tools and I think can become a very good back,, n ever in the mold of a TD or ES,, but very good. Good enough, I wouldn't draft a RB with a high pick next year.

Parcells is not running the ball Jones is it is his job and no I don't think Parcells told him to run like an idiot by that I mean up linemans butts and fall down at 1st contact. I think Jones is copping out and not looking in the mirror at the real problem. You want sit there and tell me that BP was controlling Jones every step then prove it until then it is an excuse and one I'm not buying if you want to be gullible or sugar coat Jones play that is your business

 

[Vintage]

While I admire all the Adam-nut-fondling going on in this thread, people are taking a post that proves one thing (Parcells' teams have consistently lower YPC) and seemingly inferring another (Parcells was forcing Julius Jones to perform poorly). That is not correlation. Parcells prefers a ball-control offense, lower ypc is almost assured with the way he runs it.

But, that does not mean that you can't perform well within that system. Curtis Martin's ypc hovered around 4 with parcells, but he also scored 14 TDs a year, broke some long runs (11 20+ runs in one year) and started his career on fire. Noone could possibly confuse that situation with the one facing Jones. His scouting reports from college say the exact same things we observe today - that he runs up his blocker's backs and is inconsistent. He's remained the same back throughout his college and professional career. It's tough to believe Parcells changed him somehow when he was already having these problems (that we've all observed now - outside of a statistical outlook) in Notre Dame.

You never heard any other Parcells back complaining about their eventual robotization. They just went out, and got things done. After four years, maybe Julius can finally pull that feat off.

This pretty much sums it up.

Adam I think you are exactly what this country needs. If you run for President you got my vote.

For what? Posting stats?

Please tell me this was a joke...

 

[Cowboy4ever]

Parcells is not running the ball Jones is it is his job and no I don't think Parcells told him to run like an idiot by that I mean up linemans butts and fall down at 1st contact. I think Jones is copping out and not looking in the mirror at the real problem. You want sit there and tell me that BP was controlling Jones every step then prove it until then it is an excuse and one I'm not buying if you want to be gullible or sugar coat Jones play that is your business

Not sugar coating anything at all, nor am I gullible. But you can not tell me that a coach can not have an effect on how a player plays. You can't tell me that a coach, esp one like Parcells, don't have strict guidelines to how he wants a player to do his job. And just like at your job, or my job, even if we don't agree,, we do what the guideline says, because that's how we feed our family. As far as this first contact myth, its already been addressed in an earlier post. I know.. you are only going by what your eyes see.. I understand that.. but sometimes, an outside source with no agenda is better at seeing things clearer.. and it has been shown that JJ ranked pretty high in the broken tackles area.

 

[Doomsday101]

Not sugar coating anything at all, nor am I gullible. But you can not tell me that a coach can not have an effect on how a player plays. You can't tell me that a coach, esp one like Parcells, don't have strict guidelines to how he wants a player to do his job. And just like at your job, or my job, even if we don't agree,, we do what the guideline says, because that's how we feed our family. As far as this first contact myth, its already been addressed in an earlier post. I know.. you are only going by what your eyes see.. I understand that.. but sometimes, an outside source with no agenda is better at seeing things clearer.. and it has been shown that JJ ranked pretty high in the broken tackles area.

I can tell you BP did not have him running up guys butts I have watched Parcells for years and he has never forced backs not to run to the hole or cut back when the back sees daylight. He has never told his back to go down easy. Sorry it is not a myth watch the games for a change. So if you want to blame Parcells for Jones poor running style that is your right I do know better than that.

 

[Alexander]

While I admire all the Adam-nut-fondling going on in this thread, people are taking a post that proves one thing (Parcells' teams have consistently lower YPC) and seemingly inferring another (Parcells was forcing Julius Jones to perform poorly). That is not correlation. Parcells prefers a ball-control offense, lower ypc is almost assured with the way he runs it.

But, that does not mean that you can't perform well within that system. Curtis Martin's ypc hovered around 4 with parcells, but he also scored 14 TDs a year, broke some long runs (11 20+ runs in one year) and started his career on fire. Noone could possibly confuse that situation with the one facing Jones. His scouting reports from college say the exact same things we observe today - that he runs up his blocker's backs and is inconsistent. He's remained the same back throughout his college and professional career. It's tough to believe Parcells changed him somehow when he was already having these problems (that we've all observed now - outside of a statistical outlook) in Notre Dame.

You never heard any other Parcells back complaining about their eventual robotization. They just went out, and got things done. After four years, maybe Julius can finally pull that feat off.

Game set and match!

Sorry but I am an equal opportunity nut-fondler.

 

[Cowboy4ever]

Game set and match!

Sorry but I am an equal opportunity nut-fondler.

That is why God gave you 2 hands!

 

[Alexander]

Parcells is not running the ball Jones is it is his job and no I don't think Parcells told him to run like an idiot by that I mean up linemans butts and fall down at 1st contact. I think Jones is copping out and not looking in the mirror at the real problem. You want sit there and tell me that BP was controlling Jones every step then prove it until then it is an excuse and one I'm not buying if you want to be gullible or sugar coat Jones play that is your business

The problem here is we do not know specifically what Coach Parcells told Jones, how exactly he understood those instructions and to what degree he was held accountable. All we have are vague quotes about "robo-back" and of course, Jones own feelings that he wasn't allowed to be the dominant back he has never been.

I don't see much beyond asking that he not dance, hit the correct hole and get positive yardage. He hated negative runs. If that is making someone robotic and falling right in line with the way he ruined every back he's ever coached, so be it.

 

[burmafrd]

Adams research is certainly conclusive as regards YPC. Some here are trying to say that does not matter. Then what does?

 

[Cowboy4ever]

Adams research is certainly conclusive as regards YPC. Some here are trying to say that does not matter. Then what does?

Their Agenda

 

[Alexander]

Adams research is certainly conclusive as regards YPC. Some here are trying to say that does not matter. Then what does?

It all depends on whether or not you find YPC to be an indicator of talent rather than a barometer. Take away the 77 yard jaunt Jones had against the Saints and his YPC plummets to 3.8. Which is right in line with the rest of the backs under Parcells' employ over the years.

For instance, you could take it to the extreme and assume that Jones is the best of all the backs that have ever played under Coach Parcells simply because his average was better in this one particular year.

It does not prove anything other than he has a reputation for pushing the running game to move the chains consistently and teams could have geared up for it. It does not mean he made every other back he ever coached a robot. He just believed in a simple running game that was designed to get positive yardage and decreased the opportunity for a negative play. He did not call many draws and so on because of the percentages.

 

[Alexander]

Their Agenda

And that is no different than taking numbers and using them to support a concept that cannot be proven.

You mean to imply that "Parcells makes RBs robots, here are the numbers, see?" is not an "agenda"?

 

[theogt]

While I admire all the Adam-nut-fondling going on in this thread, people are taking a post that proves one thing (Parcells' teams have consistently lower YPC) and seemingly inferring another (Parcells was forcing Julius Jones to perform poorly). That is not correlation. Parcells prefers a ball-control offense, lower ypc is almost assured with the way he runs it.

It's correlation. It's not necessarily causation.

But, that does not mean that you can't perform well within that system. Curtis Martin's ypc hovered around 4 with parcells, but he also scored 14 TDs a year

And he was doing this with 100+ more carries than Jones and without someone taking the goalline carries away.

broke some long runs (11 20+ runs in one year)

That's really not that many. Barber had nearly as many on half the carries.

and started his career on fire.

What he did was get a hell of a lot of a carries early on (368 in year one).

Noone could possibly confuse that situation with the one facing Jones. His scouting reports from college say the exact same things we observe today - that he runs up his blocker's backs and is inconsistent. He's remained the same back throughout his college and professional career.

I don't recall this being a criticism of Jones. But my memory doesn't stretch back that far.

*drinks sip of scotch*

It's tough to believe Parcells changed him somehow when he was already having these problems (that we've all observed now - outside of a statistical outlook) in Notre Dame.

Well, we do have that rookie season to look back on and see a totally different runner.

You never heard any other Parcells back complaining about their eventual robotization. They just went out, and got things done. After four years, maybe Julius can finally pull that feat off.

We didn't have nearly the same media coverage then as we do now. And it might just be the case that they simply weren't whiners. Regardless, that's hardly evidence one way or the other as to whether Jones was robotized.

 

[Alexander]

Well, we do have that rookie season to look back on and see a totally different runner.

And the same coach, probably saying the same thing. So he lets a rookie run fit and fancy free with pretty good results, but puts the clamps on him each year thereafter to accomplish what? And that somehow makes sense?

 

[superpunk]

It's correlation. It's not necessarily causation.

oh...sod off.

And he was doing this with 100+ more carries than Jones and without someone taking the goalline carries away.

Yeah. Martin was acually effective around the goalline.

That's really not that many. Barber had nearly as many on half the carries.

and LT had 12 in nearly the same amount of carries. Barber had 4 20+ runs in 135 carries...your math is fuzzy.

I don't recall this being a criticism of Jones. But my memory doesn't stretch back that far.

You can still find the reports online.

Well, we do have that rookie season to look back on and see a totally different runner.

When he beat up on the league's worst defenses? So did every other back that played those teams when we did - even poor ones. Here....have some correlation - ya ****.

 

[theogt]

Yeah. Martin was acually effective around the goalline.

Just saying. If you gave Jones all of Barber's goalline carries, he'd have more TDs. Not sure if he'd have 14, but it'd be close.

and LT had 12 in nearly the same amount of carries. Barber had 4 20+ runs in 135 carries...your math is fuzzy.

I thought Barber had more than that. Someone once posted he had more than Jones and it was somewhere around 8 or 9.

You can still find the reports online.

You find them. I'm lazy.

*sips scotch*

When he beat up on the league's worst defenses? So did every other back that played those teams when we did - even poor ones. Here....have some correlation - ya ****.

Well, I'm just saying he didn't run like a robot then. Poor competition or not, he certainly ran differently that year.

 

[superpunk]

Just saying. If you gave Jones all of Barber's goalline carries, he'd have more TDs. Not sure if he'd have 14, but it'd be close.

Defenses were alot stingier then - know that. I wnted to look earlier and see what the teams at the top were allowing in terms f ypc, AS WELL AS TOSE AT THE bottom (excuse the lock)

You find them. I'm lazy.

Later, lazy ***. someone else posted them, maybe even made a thread. The phrase "teds to run up linemen's backs" stuck out clearly. The pool is calling my name.

Well, I'm just saying he didn't run like a robot then. Poor competition or not, he certainly ran differently that year.

he's inconsistent. Carolina and seattle this year - naw mean?