News: PFT: Ezekiel Elliott has privately said that he's planning a training-camp holdout

[ABQCOWBOY]

First when using examples don't try to compare apples to oranges. Cooper was drafted in 2015, Fournette was drafted in 2017, Elliott was drafted in 2016. That whole argument about those 3 is USELESS. Three different draft years with THREE different amounts in the cap for the rookie wage scale.

Then your "performance bonus" for Prescott. The only place that exists is in your head. If you look at his contract and what's written above it you will CLEARLY see that Prescott's BASE salary for 2019 is 2.025 mil. Any bonus money IS NOT considered BASE pay. BONUS money is above and beyond BASE pay.
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I know when Cooper and Fournette were drafted. I posted it earlier as context. I also realize that salaries go up, year to year. It's in the CBA, I mean really? But look at the increases in the contract amounts and clearly, Zeke got advantage.

Honestly, there is nothing new in any of this conversation. I've been talking about it for days now and if you want to believe that it's unfair or whatever, then whatever. Believe what you want, it's not going to change anything.

 

[MyFairLady]

They'd never draft a RB #4, so we're already past that point lol.

You are probably right.

The Pats drafted Sony Michel in the 1st round. Which tells me that they value the RB position. If Michel continues to play well and has half the numbers Zeke has...they will pay him. Especially if he is helping prolong the career of Brady or supporting a young QB who can't carry the team just yet.

So can we stop with the Pats stuff?

I would consider it wise to keep an eye on the practices of the only franchise that has maintained excellence for the last million years. You are right they do seem to value the RN position. They draft them in the first 3 rounds all the time. Do they extend them early? Do they pay them big bucks? I don't really think so. I think they feel that the true value in an RB is to get a good one in the first 3 rounds and run him hard until the contract runs out. Then draft another. Just something I think we should consider.

 

[MyFairLady]

I dont pay that close attention to contracts, because I dont care whap players make, but isnt gurly in the 54 million range? I thought that is what I read today. If what I just said is correct, yo uthink Zeke is gonna take 20 million less than what Gurly got???

I am just outlining what I think are reasonable plays. I have no idea if he would or would not take it.

 

[MyFairLady]

On the Mahomes topic there is no question what so ever that he should be holding out.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Which is more important to a team?

A skill player that scores points

A non-skill player that supports scoring points.

The NFL is the ultimate team game IMO. There is no such thing as a player who scores points and a player that supports scoring IMO. Teams score and it takes all 22 guys, both sides of the ball to score enough points to win. I don't subscribe to the idea of "Guys who score and Guys who support the Guys who score".

 

[Reid1boys]

The NFL is the ultimate team game IMO. There is no such thing as a player who scores points and a player that supports scoring IMO. Teams score and it takes all 22 guys, both sides of the ball to score enough points to win. I don't subscribe to the idea of "Guys who score and Guys who support the Guys who score".

KC has some really good skill players, but put alex smith back in and removed Mahomes, and the chiefs could have been 9-7. That type of QB just puts a decent team in to the top 4 teams in the entire league.
Rodgers has pretty much ensured the Pack is in the top 6 conversation fo rmuch of his career

 

[Reid1boys]

So if a business that pays thier employees up unitl as hard as they tried end up having to file bankruptcy and you want to equate that to a person not honoring a binding contract? In most states employees who are not under employee contracts can be fire or terminate at will for the slightest thing that breaks company policy or puts company in bad light with the public.

You're trying to use a SINGLE company that may not have employment contracts as the standard. I've work for 3 different companies where many of the mid and upper management people did have employment contracts.

I'll also point out about you saying the little guy Joe doesn't get anything if a business goes bankrupt but what's the first thing they do, they run to the unemployment office to start to collect money from the state.
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where do yo uthink that money for unemployment comes from? Im pretty sure when you look at your pay stub at deductions, you see money coming out of your check to pay for unemployment. Ive never collected a penny from that fund, nor will I, but I am paying for those that do every single month. That money isnt coming out of STATE general funds. By the way, the GOVT gets all of its money from us, the citizen taxpayer, not the other way around.

I didnt use anything as a standard, you just made it sound like all these companies have employee contracts, I think most do not. Big businesses play the game and they make business decisions that are always in their best interests. Im just saying there is nothing wrong with Avg Joe doing the exact same thing. When people lost their homes, did banks really lose money? They have mortgage insurance in addition to collecting essentially nothing but interest for the first 6 or so years of a mortgage. So the avg Joe loses everything and must start over. The banks, they relly lost nothing and got bailouts on top of it.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

KC has some really good skill players, but put alex smith back in and removed Mahomes, and the chiefs could have been 9-7. That type of QB just puts a decent team in to the top 4 teams in the entire league.
Rodgers has pretty much ensured the Pack is in the top 6 conversation fo rmuch of his career

That's true but that door swings both ways. Take a guy away here or there and while you may have a QB who will make you a 9 or 10 win team, you don't have team a who can win it all. I mean, that's what all the fans want. I don't think we want a team who is always losing in the 1st or 2nd round of the playoffs or worse, a .500 type team. We all want another Lombardi and that's OK.

Rodgers and the Packers are a great example of this IMO. When Rodgers was taking less money to keep guys around him, the Packers were in contention for a championship every year. When he went for the money and got his last deal, they are now at a point where they were 6-9-1 and out of contention by November. Worse yet, the Packers reported a 98% profit loss in 2018 and that's directly related to winning IMO. That, in turn, is naturally linked to the inability of the Packers to bring in more talent to put around Rodgers because of the cap situation. It will be interesting to see how the Packers situation plays out. If the Packers continue to flounder and the profit margins don't dramatically improve, it's going to be very interesting to see how this changes the entire dynamic of paying out overly inflated contracts to any player, QB included. Right now in the NFL, I believe that's exactly where we are at. It's a copy cat league and a lot of teams are following the example of the Packers where QBs are concerned. I believe it's a mistake because it creates a self fulfilling type situation and that's not good. You continuously pay larger and larger salaries to players simply because it's their turn. That's a terrible way to manage the cap or create incentive for players to get better. All you simply have to do is do enough to be the starter when the time comes for a contract and you get a record deal? That's horrible and worse yet, down right stupid. If the trend in GB continues, I think all of that changes. I think you see the market correction.

That's just my opinion.

 

[CouchCoach]

On the Mahomes topic there is no question what so ever that he should be holding out.

From a player viewpoint maybe but a QB has never held out while under contract that I am aware of and that's crossing the fan line pretty much. There are some that aren't happy with a hold out while the player is under any part of the contract but with Mahomes having two years left and only having played one full season, he would be putting himself in a bad light and many want to see him in his real soph year and maybe without his #1 WR for some of the season.

 

[TwoDeep3]

The NFL is the ultimate team game IMO. There is no such thing as a player who scores points and a player that supports scoring IMO. Teams score and it takes all 22 guys, both sides of the ball to score enough points to win. I don't subscribe to the idea of "Guys who score and Guys who support the Guys who score".

The linemen who opened the holes did nothing when Emmitt spun our of tackles at in the secondary and ran 50 yards for a touchdown. They made the opportunity possible, but at some point the talent of the running back to create missed tackles is the cause of the long TD. Same with receivers who catch a pass then maneuver to get past the secondary and score.

I understand the point you make, but there is a reason why people like Zeke and Emmitt and Barry and Peyton and Gale Sayers et al scored from long distance. It started with the opening, for the most part. But after that it ends in the endzone because of the superior talent of the guy with the ball.

 

[DuncanIso]

Bell could've made $14.5 million last season but he chose to spend his time jet skiing in Florida.

But that was a tag. The Steelers didn’t want a long term deal. No big signing bonus. Why would they? They paid him pennies for most of his career.

Before the 2017 season, they paid him less than 5 million. Total.

They got 3 pro bowls and 2 All pro seasons for cheap.

 

[DuncanIso]

These elite RBs are NOT going to play for less than market value.

LBell was a big example of what happens when the owners take advantage of you.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

The linemen who opened the holes did nothing when Emmitt spun our of tackles at in the secondary and ran 50 yards for a touchdown. They made the opportunity possible, but at some point the talent of the running back to create missed tackles is the cause of the long TD. Same with receivers who catch a pass then maneuver to get past the secondary and score.

I understand the point you make, but there is a reason why people like Zeke and Emmitt and Barry and Peyton and Gale Sayers et al scored from long distance. It started with the opening, for the most part. But after that it ends in the endzone because of the superior talent of the guy with the ball.

If the lineman don't execute and allow their man to be in the backfield, Emmitt or Zeke are not spinning their way out of anything and those 50 yard runs become 4 yard loses. Same situation for WRs if the QB is under pressure from the snap.

I mean, we can do this dance all day but you are not going to change my view on this. I played too many games and have watched too much football in my life to doubt my stance on this. I do not subscribe to that particular view. It's a team game and I know that.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

But that was a tag. The Steelers didn’t want a long term deal. No big signing bonus. Why would they? They paid him pennies for most of his career.

Before the 2017 season, they paid him less than 5 million. Total.

They got 3 pro bowls and 2 All pro seasons for cheap.

Tag or not, it's still 14.5 mil he will never get back. He essentially gave away 14.5. Where is the logic in that? What Bell did was stupid to me but hey, I don't make 14.5 a year so those are first world problems.

 

[JoeKing]

Mickey Spagnola makes some good points countering the rumor of Zeke's planned hold out. I recommend everyone read his latest "Mick Shots"...

https://www.dallascowboys.com/news/mick-shots-common-sense-debunks-zeke-rumors

 

[InTheZone]

Privately said this? And yet it's posted everywhere...

 

[DuncanIso]

Tag or not, it's still 14.5 mil he will never get back. He essentially gave away 14.5. Where is the logic in that? What Bell did was stupid to me but hey, I don't make 14.5 a year so those are first world problems.

The Jets signed him for 4yrs 52 million .

27mil guaranteed.

I don’t think he will miss the 14.5 mil tag from Pitt.

So he got the 14.5 back, plus 13 more.

 

[TwoDeep3]

If the lineman don't execute and allow their man to be in the backfield, Emmitt or Zeke are not spinning their way out of anything and those 50 yard runs become 4 yard loses. Same situation for WRs if the QB is under pressure from the snap.

I mean, we can do this dance all day but you are not going to change my view on this. I played too many games and have watched too much football in my life to doubt my stance on this. I do not subscribe to that particular view. It's a team game and I know that.

Tell that to Barry Sanders.

 

[khiladi]

did demarcus Lawrence just get a pretty decent payday? You cant say a team is cheap because they dont want to pay big dollars to other teams free agents. Saying they want to extend their own players doesnt mean they are cheap... just means they prefer to keep their own. Because they thought the WRs they had going into the start of last season, was good enough for them to win, has nothing to do with them being cheap. Halfway through the season they were convinced they needed to do something at the WR position.... they did, and they also know that that player is gonna be due a big deal shortly shows you they are cheap? strange

Demarcus was franchise tagged already before. And they also lost Gregory and Irving and he held all the cards.

I’m not sure how any of that changes the point, especially since I referenced exactly what Stephen Jones said regarding what Dallas philosophy going forth is.

 

[cern]

so much for "private" conversations.