RECAP: Norm Hitzges on our Roy Williams...

[cobra]

But, cutting him cost us the same in 2008, more in 2009 and who knows what his replacement is going to cost in 2010. So, where is the extra money for Newman in that scenario?

The cap is a zero sum game; a closed system. Every cap dollar allocated is one less dollar that can be allocated to another resource. So on a long enough timeline, if a transaction yields + $1.00, then it helps other contracts.

Cutting Roy saves money over the course of his contract. Every dollar saved is a dollar that can be used elsewhere.

 

[AdamJT13]

That doesn't change the fact that you claimed that teams were trying to avoid Roy, now does it?

I said they split the tight end out wide to get Roy away from the box. They knew that moving the TE out wide would send Roy out there to cover him. That's obviously true.

We know that certain Giants players specifically said they were targetting Roy Williams... I'm sure they were more knowledgeable about their own game-plan than you were...

I never said they didn't. A lot of teams did split the TE wide to isolate Roy in coverage. They just didn't do it very often or get much out of it.

I claimed it has anything to do with Roy? When did I do that.

You brought Roy into a dicussion about Stewart talking about Henry.

I'm not the one saying that if Roy was such a liability, why don't they move Henry to FS and Ken Hamlin to SS... Your whole argument is predicated upon the notion that moving Ken Hamlin to FS would less impact the team then benching Roy....

What are you talking about? That's not my argument at all.

 

[AdamJT13]

But, cutting him cost us the same in 2008, more in 2009 and who knows what his replacement is going to cost in 2010.

Don't buy into Myth No. 18.

Here's the truth --

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2079591&postcount=381

The cap costs if he plays each season under his current contract (and not including his workout pay, which would amount to another $6,720 this season if he earns all of it) --

2008 $6,667,385
2009 $6,620,000
2010 $7,020,000

The cap costs if he plays this season and gets cut before June 2, 2009, and we elect not to use the June 2 treatment --

2008 $6,667,385
2009 $4,400,000
2010 $0

If he plays this season and gets cut after June 1, 2009, or if he gets cut before that and we use the June 2 treatment --

2008 $6,667,385
2009 $2,200,000
2010 $2,200,000

If he gets cut today and we use the June 2 treatment (or cut him after June 1) with no other techniques to move the cap room around --

2008 $2,947,385
2009 $4,400,000
2010 $0

If we cut him anytime this offseason and use one of the many possible ways to move cap room around --

2008 $5,847,385
2009 $1,500,000
2010 $0

As you can see, this last example gives a 2008 cap charge that's lower than ANY of the scenarios that involve him playing this season, a 2009 cap charge that's lower than ANY of the scenarios that involve him playing this season, and a 2010 cap charge of zero.

No matter how you slice it, it's $3.72 million of cap room that can be moved into whichever season we want to spend it, in any proportion.

 

[aikemirv]

The cap is a zero sum game; a closed system. Every cap dollar allocated is one less dollar that can be allocated to another resource. So on a long enough timeline, if a transaction yields + $1.00, then it helps other contracts.

Cutting Roy saves money over the course of his contract. Every dollar saved is a dollar that can be used elsewhere.

I understand that but you have to sign Newman next year when cutting Roy is costing you 6 mil and you still have to pay for his replacement.

The better question is.... does cutting Roy and finding a cheaper replacement cost you more and give you more benefit than keeping Roy for the same performance that a cheaper safety might give you?

And I say it would not.

Edit, I will have to revise my statement after reading Adams Cap numbers above. Maybe it would , I don't know.

 

[aikemirv]

Don't buy into Myth No. 18.

Here's the truth --

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2079591&postcount=381

​

Ok, thanks

And I don't know who you are Adam, but you should have a full time job as a source for all journalist regarding cap numbers for NFL personnell. It would be a great service to all NFL fans when journalist could report correct cap implications in their articles!

 

[adamknite]

i understand his point. i wasn't going to spawn and x-men forums on if we should draft Dmac or not though. he's going around getting all the exaggerated sayings that people have posted out of frustration with Roy's play compared to what it used to be. he could just talk to the people who say they don't feel his play garners the money he makes anymore. but instead he's talking to the people who say "Roy is 300 pounds" and other exaggerations.

Gotcha. However, I'd like to make note that the "myth" thread was about compiling a list of "myths"/exaggerations that are around. So going to various sources that aren't just about the NFL or Dallas Cowboys isn't such a far out notion, if the point was to show just how much they've grown and spread.

 

[Stash]

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2058228&postcount=1

Stewart was asked if adding a bunch of cornerbacks gives us the ability to take Roy off the field. He said yes, because you wouldn't do that if your third or fourth cornerback wasn't any good.

Stewart was later asked if our nickel packages would change. He said no, we'd still "deploy" against the offensive personnel.

Stewart never said anything about "a plan to keep Roy off the field in passing situations." Roy probably will be a nickel/dime linebacker in passing situations again, just like he was last year. The only time he might come out is if the offense "deploys" a four-wide offense in those situations, which is mostly when he came out in those situations last year.

Doesn't that line itself speak volumes?

And wouldn't doing so make Roy Williams a part-time or specialty player?

I'm wondering what other teams are designing packages where they take their starting SS off the field?

 

[Sarge]

Anyone else miss those QC/Hutch/Henson debates?

...................:laugh2:

 

[JohnnyHopkins]

I'm not sure why this is such a debate other than folks running to extreme's on either side of the argument. At the end of the day, it seems that most "experts" I have heard think that Roy is anywhere from good to great at supporting the run and can be lacking in pass coverage. Aside from the often overanalyzed "cost to cut him", his Cap figure isn't that bad.

I always liked this quote from a Mike Sando article that came out last year when he interviewed eleven "league insiders" and asked them to give out their most overrated and underrated players.

'Overrated:
3. Roy Williams, S, Cowboys
Scout: "He is overrated among fans but not among football people because they know what he can do and where he struggles."'

That pretty much sums it up. His coaches and the coaches around the league know what he can and cannot do, it's the fans that tend to over-hype him into a something that he simply cannot live up to. What strong safety can blanket a wide-out or premium tight-end one on one? Any Strong Safety is toast in that situation. Given how he seemed to be all over the place his first few years in the league, I too have found myself wishing for things that Roy just cannot produce. Time to get over it and look at Roy for what he is; a very good Strong Safety, period. If our Corners are on top of their game in 2008, then Roy will be "freed up" to make some big hits, fans will support him and this will all be a moot point next season.

 

[khiladi]

I said they split the tight end out wide to get Roy away from the box. They knew that moving the TE out wide would send Roy out there to cover him. That's obviously true.

And I'm arguing that the only reason you did that as to try and blow up Roy, as if teams feared Roy in the box. The fact is, teams do that for every SS, because there are less people for run-support. The SS can be just average in run-support and they would still do it.

They did it only a few times per game, if that. Some teams never used it to target Roy. Often, they'd do it to get Roy out of the box -- spread the TE to the sideline and run up the middle.

The fact is, the Giants clearly stated that they were targetting Roy. They called him out specifcally, and what is all the more absurd, is he didn't lay the wood on anybody in that game. In his rookie seasons, Shockey would drop passes right too him, and AMaani Toomer would be knocked out cold. Don't even get me started on Plaxico Burress, who is like a twig.

You brought Roy into a dicussion about Stewart talking about Henry.

Your the one that stated the following in the context of Roy:

Don't a lot of people think we can just slide Hamlin over to strong safety, put Henry at free safety and be perfectly fine?

What I stated was the very reason why Henry isn't moved to FS as per Stewart's own words, which is flat-out a direct refutation of the above question. The reason they don't shift Anthony Henry to FS is because his impact as a CB is far too great.

What are you talking about? That's not my argument at all.

To quote you once again:

Don't a lot of people think we can just slide Hamlin over to strong safety, put Henry at free safety and be perfectly fine?

 

[iceberg]

Man, I am so tired of all of this.

I really want Roy gone, but not because of his play. I just want to see what is the next thing that fans will blame for not winning.

that's the whole point. if roy left and everyone were happy that would be something good out of it all. however, once roy is gone the haters simply find a new target.

never ending cycle

 

[JohnnyHopkins]

that's the whole point. if roy left and everyone were happy that would be something good out of it all. however, once roy is gone the haters simply find a new target.

never ending cycle

They might target guys that have Thor Avatars.

 

[TNCowboy]

'Overrated:
3. Roy Williams, S, Cowboys
Scout: "He is overrated among fans but not among football people because they know what he can do and where he struggles."'

They obviously don't subscribe to Stats, LLC or KC Joyner. If they did, they'd realize that Roy is still an elite safety.....

 

[iceberg]

They might target guys that have Thor Avatars.

as long as it's not a woman hitting me i think i can handle it. : ) besides, i'm not sure i'd notice a rise in hostility.

 

[Rampage]

They might target guys that have Thor Avatars.

:laugh2:

 

[JohnnyHopkins]

They obviously don't subscribe to Stats, LLC or KC Joyner. If they did, they'd realize that Roy is still an elite safety.....

I believe their point was that Roy is a good safety, but fans have overhyped him into some type of all-world player that he is not.

On another note, I found this blurb from a KC Joyner chat back from 2007.

"SprungOnSports (Long Island): How does Roy Williams stack up based on your safety metrics?

KC Joyner: Williams had bottom 10 of the league coverage metrics in many places, but I didn't put him on the overrated list because everyone knows he has some coverage issues."

As far as I can see, there are opinions for either side and the stats are what you make them. If you want to believe Roy is good, the odds are that you will find things in your favor. If you want to belive that he isn't then the same thing applies. I believe Roy is a quality Strong Safety, but not an elite player in the NFL as I had hoped he would be. I know there are those that believe differently and that is fine.

But, I think we would all agree that the pudding cup was a great idea because they are low in calories and delicious.

 

[JPM]

I believe Roy is a quality Strong Safety

So do I.

 

[iceberg]

Doesn't that line itself speak volumes?

And wouldn't doing so make Roy Williams a part-time or specialty player?

I'm wondering what other teams are designing packages where they take their starting SS off the field?

and given that the cap hit isn't bad to cut him and we have not, does that not also speak volumes, if you're listening to the whole picture?

 

[Stash]

and given that the cap hit isn't bad to cut him and we have not, does that not also speak volumes, if you're listening to the whole picture?

I'm trying to listen, but I hear two sides of the story and neither side wants to hear even the slightest bit of what the other is trying to say.

There is the possibility that we're dealing with a 'lesser of two evils' scenario as well.

And it's not June 1st yet so perhaps it's possible that they might look at a trade?

I think you can designate two cuts as post June 1st but I don't think that applies to trades.

But the guy to ask has to be close by as this is a Roy Williams thread.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Don't a lot of people think we can just slide Hamlin over to strong safety, put Henry at free safety and be perfectly fine?

While I didn't word it that way by saying "Nobody", I meant beyond Hamlin as if Roy is gone, we only have a single SS on the roster.