RECAP: Norm Hitzges on our Roy Williams...

[iceberg]

I'm trying to listen, but I hear two sides of the story and neither side wants to hear even the slightest bit of what the other is trying to say.

There is the possibility that we're dealing with a 'lesser of two evils' scenario as well.

And it's not June 1st yet so perhaps it's possible that they might look at a trade?

I think you can designate two cuts as post June 1st but I don't think that applies to trades.

But the guy to ask has to be close by as this is a Roy Williams thread.

i think both sides hear the other side, the vocal ones just don't go as deep into the other side.

roy sucks and any excuse is wrong.
roy doesn't "suck" and all the attacks are unfounded.

i've yet to see *anyone* say roy's the same player he used to be. i do however see thread upon thread upon thread of ROY SUCKS!

the ROY SUCKS crowd doesn't seem to want to hear anything but ROY SUCKS from everyone. the other side is either too worn out over the witch hunt to care or the few to many that don't think he's fallen THAT far would just as soon not stand out in the mob and outcry.

it's easy to see roy's not the player he used to be. i'm not on the ROY SUCKS parade because i hate mob mentality for one and for another, i don't think it's as bad as that extreme says it is.

in the end i just wish people would chill out about it and let things take their course and find the next horse to flog to death.

 

[CalCBFan]

I'm not a capologist but I'd love to see Roy gone from the team...Liability back there and frankly I'm tired of what we've come to expect from him.

If he were to catch on in NEngland, even, and flourish, I could care less...He's done here.

I would care plenty. The fact that he could flourish somewhere else tells me our coaches are not as capable as some other team's coaches. Although I will admit getting released can straighten-out a player's attitude and cause them to appreciate the opportunity more than they did w/ their old team...

 

[MichaelWinicki]

and given that the cap hit isn't bad to cut him and we have not, does that not also speak volumes, if you're listening to the whole picture?

Well that's not entirely true either. It would cost the Cowboys an additional $2 mil or so this year to cut Roy... AND you lose the player too. Being that we're so close to the cap to begin with have to try to sign Canty/Barber long term and redo Newman's contract, swallowing another $2 mil cap hit could be very bad. And you lose the player. I just don't see Roy being the worst safety in the NFC and cut worthy.

Next offseason I might have a different view, being that the cap hit will be less. But I think Roy is going to do a little "Brady James" redo and actually put together a decent season with Campo's help.

 

[cowboyeric8]

i think both sides hear the other side, the vocal ones just don't go as deep into the other side.

roy sucks and any excuse is wrong.
roy doesn't "suck" and all the attacks are unfounded.

i've yet to see *anyone* say roy's the same player he used to be. i do however see thread upon thread upon thread of ROY SUCKS!

the ROY SUCKS crowd doesn't seem to want to hear anything but ROY SUCKS from everyone. the other side is either too worn out over the witch hunt to care or the few to many that don't think he's fallen THAT far would just as soon not stand out in the mob and outcry.

it's easy to see roy's not the player he used to be. i'm not on the ROY SUCKS parade because i hate mob mentality for one and for another, i don't think it's as bad as that extreme says it is.

in the end i just wish people would chill out about it and let things take their course and find the next horse to flog to death.

I completely agree. I for one want Roy to succeed, and he hasn't been near as bad as everyone else makes him out to be. Of course he has struggled here and there, but he helps the team. There is no better option out there so people should just shut up.

Nothing is going to get accomplished by the back and forth bickering.

I also don't like the mob mentality, same thing happened to Julius. And thanks to Julius being gone Roy is now the victim, haha.

 

[iceberg]

Well that's not entirely true either. It would cost the Cowboys an additional $2 mil or so this year to cut Roy... AND you lose the player too. Being that we're so close to the cap to begin with have to try to sign Canty/Barber long term and redo Newman's contract, swallowing another $2 mil cap hit could be very bad. And you lose the player. I just don't see Roy being the worst safety in the NFC and cut worthy.

Next offseason I might have a different view, being that the cap hit will be less. But I think Roy is going to do a little "Brady James" redo and actually put together a decent season with Campo's help.

from what adam says, we'd save money to cut him overall. i'm not gonna argue #'s w/adam. : )

 

[iceberg]

I completely agree. I for one want Roy to succeed, and he hasn't been near as bad as everyone else makes him out to be. Of course he has struggled here and there, but he helps the team. There is no better option out there so people should just shut up.

Nothing is going to get accomplished by the back and forth bickering.

I also don't like the mob mentality, same thing happened to Julius. And thanks to Julius being gone Roy is now the victim, haha.

yea, the mob just doesn't seem to be happy unless we're all dogging on any given player at a given time. : )

 

[CATCH17]

There are a lot of "Roy Sucks" people but there are a lot of us who think he just isnt living up to expectations too.

I think hes average and we can almost do as good, or possibly get lucky and do better, and not pay someone top safety money.

I want to give him one more year though.

 

[JohnnyHopkins]

I think hes average and we can almost do as good, or possibly get lucky and do better, and not pay someone top safety money.

You better be careful or Adam will bring out the Myth List again!

 

[dcfanatic]

Here's the audio from Hitzges

-------------------
I'm done wishing, hoping and praying Roy finds his game once again.

He has no faith in us as fans, so then I have no faith in him as a football player.

I just hope if he continues to be 'Just A Guy' in 2008 the Cowboys get rid of him before the 2009 season begins.

To tell you the truth I would not be shocked at all if he's traded sometime within the next two months in some package for a WR.

 

[ThreeSportStar80]

Roy Williams is overrated, he's been exposed... I can't believe he made the pro bowl last year honestly.

 

[cowboyrock]

There is a decision this team may have to contemplate. Like it or not, we live in a money world. People not performing to their level of pay risk losing their job. It's the real world. It happened to TO in Philly when his bonus of 15 mil came due.

I don't know what the Cowboys are going to do in the situation I am about to discuss.

Let's be honest. Roy William's play has declined in the last couple of years. Teams are obviously structuring their plays to isolate Roy in coverage.

The Cowboys have gathered quite a few DB's over the last two years in the draft and trades.

What are Roy's strengths? Blowing up plays around the LOS. Have we seen much of that lately? No. Have we seen the huge game changing hits? Not lately. In fact we have been concerned with his poor tackling as of late.

This is a all a side issue. The question is what do the Cowboys think of Roy Williams? Roy signed a contract extension in 2006. It did not kick in in 2006 and is bound through 2010. He was given a 11.1 mil signing bonus. These numbers are roughly accurate. He counts against the cap at somewhere just under 3 million dollars. On June 1st, if the club ponders releasing him, he would hit the cap for 2.5-2.9 mil. Next year would be around 5.9 mil. The way his new contract was drawn up, his base salary was under $600,000 last year. If you add that bonus spread out over 4 years, he costs the Cowboys roughly 3.5 mil per year over the length of the deal.

This year his base jumps to 3.72 mil. Next year 4.4 and in 2010 a bit over 4 mil. If the Cowboys contemplate cutting him, just under 3 mil this year and just under 6 mil next year, but 3.7 mil comes off the books in base salary this year so it would actually be a little advantageous. Next year, as we said, it would be 5.9, but the FOLLOWING year, Dallas would have 4 million they hadn't counted on. He is owed over 12 mil the next three years. The Cowboys have to ask themselves if he's worth over 4 mil for the next three years given his current level of play.

I hate saying this about a player but it is reality these days. It happens every day in the NFL.

Is he a three down S anymore? Absolutely not. We asked Brian Stewart in an interview on draft day that by picking up Pacman, Scandrick and Jenkins is it part of a plan to keep Roy off the field on passing downs. He paused and said... "yes"...

I think this jump in base salary this year puts a question mark by Roy Williams name in regards to his future here.

Adding to this discussion with his statements lately on not being comfortable in this scheme. Their was a meeting last week with Stewart and Campo on his role on this team come this year.

I said on draft day that with the players Dallas took, they were taking Roy off the field for 100 more plays. He is a two down player now...

.....

He's taking calls on this now...

He's not even a two down player. he's terrible.the guy needs to be off this team. take the cap it and move on Jerry.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

I actually don't hate Roy and I am one of the people who hopes he proves this year that he can put it all together again.

I get aggrivated, at times, with his play, but he's still one of my favorite Cowboys and I'd rather not see him play elsewhere. I'd just rather see him suck it up, put in the time, and do better.

 

[TNCowboy]

I actually don't hate Roy and I am one of the people who hopes he proves this year that he can put it all together again.

I get aggrivated, at times, with his play, but he's still one of my favorite Cowboys and I'd rather not see him play elsewhere. I'd just rather see him suck it up, put in the time, and do better.

I don't hate Roy either. I'd love to see him have a real comeback season. I don't expect it to happen, but I'd be all too happy to eat my words.

What is annoying is the ridiculous defense some put up for him. No, he isn't the worst safety in the league as some pretend (the types of comments his "supporters" attribute to anyone who criticizes him). But, he's one of the best paid players on the team, and like it or not, that is a huge factor in how harshly he's judged. If he were a 4th round draft pick making just above the minimum, there'd be nowhere near the criticism of him that there is. He's also criticized severly because many of us remember the player he used to be. He was fantastic his first few years in the league. He set the bar high for his play, cashed in because of it, and is now just a shadow of that guy. Guys like that will - deservedly - get criticized. That the ultra-sensitive RW has radar ears about it only compounds the problem.

I think that if the old RW doesn't reappear this year, he's probably finished in Dallas.

 

[Deep_Freeze]

Well one thing about this does stick in my mind.....if Roy costs us in negotations with resigning Ware or TNew, then I will come to Valley Ranch to kick Roy's butt out myself.

 

[AdamJT13]

Doesn't that line itself speak volumes?

And wouldn't doing so make Roy Williams a part-time or specialty player?

Like I asked before, do you consider a player who plays 94 percent of the snaps a "part-time or specialty player"?

 

[AdamJT13]

Well that's not entirely true either. It would cost the Cowboys an additional $2 mil or so this year to cut Roy... AND you lose the player too. Being that we're so close to the cap to begin with have to try to sign Canty/Barber long term and redo Newman's contract, swallowing another $2 mil cap hit could be very bad.

Cutting Roy would save cap room and make it easier to resign those guys --

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2080651&postcount=63

The cap costs if he plays each season under his current contract (and not including his workout pay, which would amount to another $6,720 this season if he earns all of it) --

2008 $6,667,385
2009 $6,620,000
2010 $7,020,000

The cap costs if he plays this season and gets cut before June 2, 2009, and we elect not to use the June 2 treatment --

2008 $6,667,385
2009 $4,400,000
2010 $0

If he plays this season and gets cut after June 1, 2009, or if he gets cut before that and we use the June 2 treatment --

2008 $6,667,385
2009 $2,200,000
2010 $2,200,000

If he gets cut today and we use the June 2 treatment (or cut him after June 1) with no other techniques to move the cap room around --

2008 $2,947,385
2009 $4,400,000
2010 $0

If we cut him anytime this offseason and use one of the many possible ways to move cap room around --

2008 $5,847,385
2009 $1,500,000
2010 $0

As you can see, this last example gives a 2008 cap charge that's lower than ANY of the scenarios that involve him playing this season, a 2009 cap charge that's lower than ANY of the scenarios that involve him playing this season, and a 2010 cap charge of zero.

No matter how you slice it, it's $3.72 million of cap room that can be moved into whichever season we want to spend it, in any proportion.

 

[Stash]

Like I asked before, do you consider a player who plays 94 percent of the snaps a "part-time or specialty player"?

How many other starting safeties played 94% or less snaps last season?

How many of them are making what Roy Williams is making?

If you want to factor in numbers, factor in all of 'em.

I consider any starting player who needs to be taken off the field a part-time/specialty player.

He may have played 94 percent of the snaps last season, but from Stewart's own words that number looks to be decreasing.

I'm tired of having these endless debates about a clearly disappointing player.

You can bring up whatever numbers you'd like, and it won't change how many fans, the media, and the coaches see things.

 

[iceberg]

You can bring up whatever numbers you'd like, and it won't change how many fans, the media, and the coaches see things.

that's the problem. people see a few "facts", make up their mind, and it's over. it won't change how the fans (and others) see things, true or not. you want it to be, so it is and you'll (not you, but the roy sucks crowd) hear no part of maybe roy isn't as bad as the exaggurations would have you believe.

do you believe he's not as good as he used to be or do you believe he's as bad as the "frustrated fan" exaggurates? those get mixed up a lot.

 

[Stash]

that's the problem. people see a few "facts", make up their mind, and it's over. it won't change how the fans (and others) see things, true or not. you want it to be, so it is and you'll (not you, but the roy sucks crowd) hear no part of maybe roy isn't as bad as the exaggurations would have you believe.

do you believe he's not as good as he used to be or do you believe he's as bad as the "frustrated fan" exaggurates? those get mixed up a lot.

Me personally? I'm not dealing in absolutes one way or another.

My 'official' stance would be that I hope that Roy Williams can improve over the past two seasons.

I hope that he can return to being the force that he was and not the liability that I now see. I hope he can justify what he's getting paid and remain with the Cowboys.

But what I've seen recently is a player needing to be coddled and schemes needing to be massaged to fit him. I see increasing 'maintenance' and dwindling 'returns'.

Is he a terrible player?

No.

Is he a disappointment?

Yes. Right now, yes he is.

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

We asked Brian Stewart in an interview on draft day that by picking up Pacman, Scandrick and Jenkins is it part of a plan to keep Roy off the field on passing downs. He paused and said... "yes"...

Stewart should also be looking over his shoulder.
However Roy's play has been, Stewart's failure to adjust coverages and schemes has been even worse.