Someone tell the Bucs you build through the draft only

[Oz-of-Cowboy-Country]

And Dallas is right now?

Don't make me throw a D size battery at you.

 

[Kevinicus]

If Antonio Brown, Gronk weren't there...I think Mike Evans, Brate and Godwin would've been able to take the load but who I guess not according to you. Oh well.

Because 2 WR threats are better than 3.
Because the 3rd string TE is as good as the 2nd.
Because ignoring the other guys mentioned on defense is convenient after embarrassing yourself by riding on the guy who barely played.

Got it.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

OJ Howard was injured and replaced by a FA.
Brate was a FA.
hargreaves doesn’t play for the Bucs.

The Bucs went out and got splash players and it paid off. Same with the chiefs. There’s nothing wrong with building through the draft and also not being miserly.

Howard was part of their team, and got injured after 4 games.

Brate was an UDFA. those who don't get drafted and you pick up, ala building your team with young talent from college.

my mistake on Hargreaves...


still yet, the core is through draft. you supplement and fill in the gaps with reasonable FAs. of course having Brady and Arians (well respected) helps. Brady was key to all of it, since that was their biggest gap in play in 2019. I don't want to come across as saying no FA at all, that's not my intent. but like I have been saying, your sign a few key FAs (the right ones) and close the the gaps you couldn't through one or two high end FAs. but if you don't have that core, signing Barrett to a big contract without any support ain't going to get it done. for example having barrett in Dallas would have helped, but wouldn't make us a championship caliber defense.

 

[Risen Star]

He's overwhelmed by our offer.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

Go look at the success rate on draft picks, especially in the later rounds. It's a crapshoot. If you don''t believe it is, you haven't looked at the success rates. For the first round, it's around 50 percent. For the subsequent rounds, it gets worse.

You build through the draft because you take a lot of shots (for example, having 10 picks this year). Based on percentages, you get a few players among those 10 who become quality starters. Let's say you get three quality starters in a year, which is actually on the high side, just building through the draft, it would take you seven years to put quality starters at every position on offense and defense.

I 100 percent agree with you that you have to draft well, and I don't think anyone here is saying that you don't. But you also have to use free agency well.

Green Bay was not competitive until it vastly improved its defense. The year it won the Super Bowl, it had a very good defense. Charles Woodson was a big-time free agent piece of that (I could go back and point out more I'm sure, but I don't want to make the effort). Yes, having a great offense has been important to the Packers' success, but so has been a competent defense.

We've built a competitive offense, but we haven't done what Green Bay did to put a defense on the field that can help that offense and become a contender. You have to spend some money, money, money. It all goes hand in hand to putting a competitive team on the field.

You build through the draft. You supplement with free agency. That's how you put a team together. You don't grab some FAs off the trash heap and try to fill holes while you continue to build through the draft. If you do that, you are never going to succeed because there will always be holes to fill. You've got to fill those holes with quality to supplement the base you build with draft picks if you want to contend.

There are a lot of teams who have success in draft. its more about probabilities (not getting mathematical here). there is an evaluation process. its not 100%, but more 1st rounders succeed than 7th rounders and you are not going to get 7 good players added to the team every year. you get 3 high contributors you have done well. regardless, you keep drafting and if you have a good organization that can assess players and how they fit on the team, your chances of success are higher. bad teams, whiff a lot, reach a lot and miss a lot on draft picks.

and there is some theory behind having more draft picks and better chance of success, Bilicheck did that a lot, by always trading down and trading for future picks, but that's bilicheck run organization. once in a generation on one of 32 teams.

and you look at our team, you look at our draft successes. we seem to be really good in picking offensive guys, but bad at defense. in the past 15 years, 44 defensive draft picks and perhaps 2 we can say played at the high level for a long time, in Lawrence and Jones. 44 picks and I wouldn't say either one is HOF worthy...that included top 10 picks, bunch of 1st rounders, etc.

now, compare that to our offensive drafts for the same period and we have Dak, Zeke, Tyron, Martin, Fredrick, Gallup, Pollard, Biadasz (all rookie team), CD (based on this past year), Collins (UDFA), Schultz, Jarwin.....we seem to find all the right offensive guys, but continously suck on the defense and have picks like Taco, Claiborne, Jaylon (injured), Hill (ugh), Gregory (talented but a head case), LVE (with injury history from college), Collins, etc....we just can't pick good defensive players for what ever reason, so how do we fix the defensive evaluation problem......it seems we swing for the fences every defensive pick and miss.

now, with that said, I think it gives us a better chance having 10 picks. hopefully we can pick some lunch pale guys, some meat and potato guys and not try to swing for the fences with every pick....some solid contributors, starters, and then fill the gaps with a high impact FA and couple of mid level FAs.....

and I agree, that GB was not competitive enough until it improved its defense, plus they got a shot in the arm with the offense and rebuild it rather quickly. Rodgers is key to their team. they had the #1 offense.

and GB spent a lot of money on FAs and tried to build through FA...but that got them to 13th best defense.....and lost to a better defensive team in Bucs......now, the time comes to pay the piper for their offensive players and they may have some challanges. the problem is that to build a defense its not about one player transforming your team. it will take several and if there is no core, then that one key player ain't going to make much of a difference. for example adding Barrett to our defense would have made defense only slightly better, not make them dominant. we would need 4 or 5 more solid and high end contributors.....that's why I keep pushing that we need to fix and build our defensive core through the draft. if we can't figure it out...there is not enough money to fix this defense....

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

Because 2 WR threats are better than 3.
Because the 3rd string TE is as good as the 2nd.
Because ignoring the other guys mentioned on defense is convenient after embarrassing yourself by riding on the guy who barely played.

Got it.

You're arguing to argue at this point. Just agree to disagree and move on this is pointless. You are riding and dying with this opinion to try and pave a point. Buccaneers have 4 very good wide receivers. Brate is a very good tight end. End of discussion.

 

[gimmesix]

and GB spent a lot of money on FAs and tried to build through FA...but that got them to 13th best defense.....and lost to a better defensive team in Bucs......now, the time comes to pay the piper for their offensive players and they may have some challanges. the problem is that to build a defense its not about one player transforming your team. it will take several and if there is no core, then that one key player ain't going to make much of a difference. for example adding Barrett to our defense would have made defense only slightly better, not make them dominant. we would need 4 or 5 more solid and high end contributors.....that's why I keep pushing that we need to fix and build our defensive core through the draft. if we can't figure it out...there is not enough money to fix this defense....

The Bucs also used free agency and trades to supplement their defense. But I agree that we absolutely have to build our defensive core through the draft. Hopefully, that's the focus this year. However, to put that defense over the top, history shows you've got to use free agency to fill in the gaps. This is the way of the salary cap era. You can't build a complete team before your own players come up for free agency, and if they are the type of players you want starting for you, then you have to pay a pretty penny to keep them. Lawrence is a very good example of that.

If we go defense heavy in the draft, we have a chance of having a competitive defense before those rookies come up for a second contract if we supplement the draft choices with a few well-chosen free agents. If we continue to be so cheap that all we can get are broken-down players or never-was players, then this cycle will continue where players like Byron Jones leave for greener pastures before we can complete the defense. You need FAs that make your team slightly better instead of ones that make your team worse. Then that core you build in the draft can shine because they've got good players around them.

I am convinced (and I could be proven wrong) that the main problem with Jaylon Smith and LVE at linebacker this year (other than LVE's injury issues) was what we had in front of them. It's hard to run to the ball and get in lanes when the offensive line is able to manhandle the DTs and peel off quickly to get out on the second level. So part of our core, those linebackers, are hampered because we failed to use FA to effectively fill out the line in front of them. Fans get mad at LVE and Smith for seemingly freelancing, but when you don't have a nose tackle who can occupy two blockers long enough, that's what happens. When you don't have a 3-tech who can consistently get into the backfield and disrupt plays, that's what happens.

It's like drafting a cornerback in the first or second round (which we did with Diggs) and then not having the pressure players to make the quarterback have to get the ball out quickly. Even the best corner cannot maintain tight coverage for long.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

The Bucs also used free agency and trades to supplement their defense. But I agree that we absolutely have to build our defensive core through the draft. Hopefully, that's the focus this year. However, to put that defense over the top, history shows you've got to use free agency to fill in the gaps. This is the way of the salary cap era. You can't build a complete team before your own players come up for free agency, and if they are the type of players you want starting for you, then you have to pay a pretty penny to keep them. Lawrence is a very good example of that.

If we go defense heavy in the draft, we have a chance of having a competitive defense before those rookies come up for a second contract if we supplement the draft choices with a few well-chosen free agents. If we continue to be so cheap that all we can get are broken-down players or never-was players, then this cycle will continue where players like Byron Jones leave for greener pastures before we can complete the defense. You need FAs that make your team slightly better instead of ones that make your team worse. Then that core you build in the draft can shine because they've got good players around them.

I am convinced (and I could be proven wrong) that the main problem with Jaylon Smith and LVE at linebacker this year (other than LVE's injury issues) was what we had in front of them. It's hard to run to the ball and get in lanes when the offensive line is able to manhandle the DTs and peel off to get out on the second level. So our core, those linebackers, are hampered because we failed to use FA to fill out the line in front of them. Fans get mad at LVE and Smith for seemingly freelancing, but when you don't have a nose tackle who can occupy two blockers long enough, that's what happens. When you don't have a 3-tech who can consistently get into the backfield and disrupt plays, that's what happens.

It's like drafting a cornerback in the first or second round (which we did with Diggs) and then not having the pressure players to make the quarterback have to get the ball out quickly. Even the best corner cannot maintain tight coverage for long.

oh, that's what I have been saying all along. you build a core through draft, the areas you couldn't find/fill through draft you target through the "right" FA.

and I have been advocating that we shouldn't really sign any pricey FAs this year, despite them addressing a need. one the cap is lower. two, we have so many needs. lets get through draft, lets give quinn one year to implement his system, lets see what we have in draftees, diggs, gallimore and wilson and then in 2022, we have a better idea of what holes we need to fill, what we can target in draft and FA....

in regards to your comment about LVE and Smith, I tend to agree, but with so many problems, it was difficult to assess if they are part of the solution or part of the problem. one thing was painfully, oh so painfully obvious that the middle of the DL needs to be addressed and strengthen that group. I do think Jaylon is more physically limited and needs to be protected. he is not good in space and his change of direction (or lack thereof) was painfully evident. he maybe usable if he stays close to the line, he has some short distance straight ahead quickness and speed and he likes to hit, so he can be the run stopping LB. we should be able to get a coverage/ off the ball LB in draft. lets give LVE one more year and perhaps if there is a stronger DL in front of him he can be better.

 

[gimmesix]

oh, that's what I have been saying all along. you build a core through draft, the areas you couldn't find/fill through draft you target through the "right" FA.

and I have been advocating that we shouldn't really sign any pricey FAs this year, despite them addressing a need. one the cap is lower. two, we have so many needs. lets get through draft, lets give quinn one year to implement his system, lets see what we have in draftees, diggs, gallimore and wilson and then in 2022, we have a better idea of what holes we need to fill, what we can target in draft and FA....

in regards to your comment about LVE and Smith, I tend to agree, but with so many problems, it was difficult to assess if they are part of the solution or part of the problem. one thing was painfully, oh so painfully obvious that the middle of the DL needs to be addressed and strengthen that group. I do think Jaylon is more physically limited and needs to be protected. he is not good in space and his change of direction (or lack thereof) was painfully evident. he maybe usable if he stays close to the line, he has some short distance straight ahead quickness and speed and he likes to hit, so he can be the run stopping LB. we should be able to get a coverage/ off the ball LB in draft. lets give LVE one more year and perhaps if there is a stronger DL in front of him he can be better.

The only thing we really disagree on is pricey free agents. I think there are players who are worth the price and I'd rather have two of them than five or six lesser players. They would be multi-year fixes for a couple of positions that allow the team to focus the draft on other spots.

Everything is about value relative to ability. If the value is right, then I think Dallas should add a couple of players at the top of their game, depending on the opportunity to do that.

I don't expect that to happen, because it isn't the Cowboys way. Our only real hope is that this year's roll of the dice on bargain FAs turns out better than last year's.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

The only thing we really disagree on is pricey free agents. I think there are players who are worth the price and I'd rather have two of them than five or six lesser players. They would be multi-year fixes for a couple of positions that allow the team to focus the draft on other spots.

Everything is about value relative to ability. If the value is right, then I think Dallas should add a couple of players at the top of their game, depending on the opportunity to do that.

I don't expect that to happen, because it isn't the Cowboys way. Our only real hope is that this year's roll of the dice on bargain FAs turns out better than last year's.

I don't think I disagree with you on that neither. I just think we have to build the core first, be close and then the pricey FAs or two....until then, with possibly 7 or 8 spots to fill, lets just wait.

 

[Loso86]

I see on the boards all the time “build through the draft and bring in some stop gaps (scrubs) in free agency....that’s how you win a Super Bowl

Well Steve let’s take a look at the Bucs....

Notable free agents:

1. Tom Brady
2. Shaq Barret
3. Gronk
4. Fournette
5. Suh
6. Antonio Brown
7. Jason Paul

So you can go on living that lie that we will win a Super Bowl through the draft and free agency scrubs

Yea our fans and this site only really likes to pay ...Nobody and wants perfect drafts in which we let those players go and keep drafting great....all the good teams do it right lol

 

[Proof]

I see on the boards all the time “build through the draft and bring in some stop gaps (scrubs) in free agency....that’s how you win a Super Bowl

Well Steve let’s take a look at the Bucs....

Notable free agents:

1. Tom Brady
2. Shaq Barret
3. Gronk
4. Fournette
5. Suh
6. Antonio Brown
7. Jason Paul

So you can go on living that lie that we will win a Super Bowl through the draft and free agency scrubs

I’m sure someone has already said it better, but I don’t feel like reading through the thread. I don’t think anyone has ever said that bringing in scrub free agents was a means to do anything.

building through the draft is a way to build continued success, but it also doesn’t guarantee a championship, and neither does any other method.

but yes, the next time an all time great wants to accept a reasonable deal and recruit his friends, might be smart to take a look, sure.

 

[Proof]

If you have to go all the way to 2000..then naw it’s not BS.

the Peyton Broncos signed a ton of guys too no?

 

[Proof]

Only ones notable are Barrett and Brady. They would’ve won the Super Bowl without them and quite frankly if it wasn’t for the draft that offensive line wouldn’t have been able to protect Brady.


You can’t hype up the Buccs without mentioning their best players on the team happen to have been their draft picks. Mike Evans,Vea, Winfield, Godwin......

they would’ve won without Brady?

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

they would’ve won without Brady?

I said they would've won without them other than Barrett and Brady.

 

[Proof]

I said they would've won without them other than Barrett and Brady.

oh. My bad lol.

reads confusingly

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

the Peyton Broncos signed a ton of guys too no?

They did. As did the Eagles. This doesn't mean that it makes it the standard to win a Super Bow. Quite frankly, there's no blueprint on how to win a Super Bowl. People are making the connection but mind you the Cowboys just last year in free agency got Robert Quinn, Randall Cobb, Michael Bennett I believe during the season...and it resulted in 8 wins.

The correct answer to this thread was answered a long time ago but I'll reiterate it. You don't avoid free agency and you don't avoid the draft. You need both to do well. Will it result in a championship? Probably not. But what's been proven int his league is that hunger wins Super Bowls. Go get that hunger anyway you can whether its the draft or free agency.

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

oh. My bad lol.

reads confusingly

Yeah that's probably my mistake. I was more so saying I believe they would've won without guys like Gronk, Suh, Brown etc.

What the OP to me fails to realize is the most important players on this team were drafted except for Barrett and Brady. I think people are sadly mistaken if they think Brady would've won a ring with the Cowboys with the defensive looking like it looks. Its insulting to just credit this Super Bowl win to "free agency".

 

[gimmesix]

I don't think I disagree with you on that neither. I just think we have to build the core first, be close and then the pricey FAs or two....until then, with possibly 7 or 8 spots to fill, lets just wait.

I'm a little less into waiting. I think teams can turn things around quickly with a few well-picked FAs and a strong draft.

We're not really missing any pieces on offense, although there's obvious concern about the tackles. Most of our problems on offense were injury-related, and unless those look to be long-term for Smith and Collins, we should be set to have a very strong offense this year with Prescott's return.

So, in order to compete WHILE we have that strong offense intact, we need to fix the defense in a hurry. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I think there are five absolute starting needs: corner, free safety, both defensive tackles and a two-down linebacker. Because I want quality at those positions, I'm not counting on any draft pick beyond the second round to be a difference-maker his first year (but it's crucial that we hit on those first two picks).

If we're going cheap, our best two options in FA might be NT and two-down LB. Usually, those players don't cost as much. (It will be tougher to get a quality FS, 3-tech and CB for cheap.)

I'd rather see us spend more on a free safety and 3-tech. (And we can still fill that two-down LB for cheap.) Of course, it all depends on who is available.

If we don't do that and choose to keep piecing it together, we're going to lose some key components on offense before the defense gets finished. Gallup will likely be out the door after the season. If Smith makes it through this season, that might be it. Williams will likely be gone, which is not the biggest loss, but coupled with Smith, it makes addressing our line imperative. Schultz becomes a free agent.

Today's NFL is a strike-now league. That's one reason you don't see many teams repeat their success because you just can't sustain what you've got for long. You have to be great after you get there of replacing players who become too expensive when they hit free agency. And few teams can accomplish that consistently.

 

[Proof]

They did. As did the Eagles. This doesn't mean that it makes it the standard to win a Super Bow. Quite frankly, there's no blueprint on how to win a Super Bowl. People are making the connection but mind you the Cowboys just last year in free agency got Robert Quinn, Randall Cobb, Michael Bennett I believe during the season...and it resulted in 8 wins.

The correct answer to this thread was answered a long time ago but I'll reiterate it. You don't avoid free agency and you don't avoid the draft. You need both to do well. Will it result in a championship? Probably not. But what's been proven int his league is that hunger wins Super Bowls. Go get that hunger anyway you can whether its the draft or free agency.

Yeah I didn’t have a point other than that was since the Ravens in 2000. I’ve already posted that there’s no sure fire way and that relying on FA is untenable. Was simply recalling that team. I remember being jealous of all the guys they signed