USA Today: It's time to admit Cowboys' Jason Garrett grew into a great head coach

[Sydla]

some just see better than others. Fact is Garret has done NOTHING in the playoffs. Until he does he is NOT EVEN CLOSE TO BEING GREAT.

In the last 30 years show me a coach that won a Lombardi without coming close his first 7 years. Back in the older days (60's and 70's) when the NFL was completely different it could and did happen.

In this day and age? Red Ball is very lucky that Jerry is one who hates to acknowledge mistakes.

Well Belicheck did win a SB in his 7th year as head coach.

 

[waving monkey]

some just see better than others. Fact is Garret has done NOTHING in the playoffs. Until he does he is NOT EVEN CLOSE TO BEING GREAT.

In the last 30 years show me a coach that won a Lombardi without coming close his first 7 years. Back in the older days (60's and 70's) when the NFL was completely different it could and did happen.

In this day and age? Red Ball is very lucky that Jerry is one who hates to acknowledge mistakes.

You share some truth there. However I believe JJones has most certainly and finally acknowledged his faults.
He turned over much of the operation to Stephen.

 

[Idgit]

Real change? At this point, this is what the diehard Garrett defenders point to........... nebulous things like culture and change because other than two nice regular seasons, Garrett's resume is pretty bland. What good is culture and chemistry if he still can't win playoff games?

7 years. It's now time to stop pointing to things like culture and the like and start expecting and getting playoff success. If we are sitting here in January after a non-playoff season or another early bounce out of the playoffs, I really hope we don't hear things like what a great team culture he's building. I mean how long does it take to build a team culture? A decade?

I point to the 12-4 and 13-3 seasons pretty unapologetically. It's really hard to build that and it's evidence that we've got a talented roster.

Everybody with any sense knows why the 4-12 happened. That season sucked, but the fact that it happened has no bearing on where the team is now.

Even with it though, we've been one of the 8-9 winningest teams in the league under Garrett. While rebuilding that 1-7 2010 team. I'd say it's the Garrett detractors who are using nebulous measures now that the won-loss metric is looking like an indication this coach knows what he's doing.

 

[waving monkey]

maybe because we watched other teams completely rebuild and win it all while we just treaded water.

How long did it take Pete Carrol to build that team? from the time he got there until they won it all?

Sean Payton at NO? I could go on but I hope you get the point.

those are good coaches also
Pete Carrol is more then a good coach he is great.
I'm too lazy to look up their rosters upon taking the helm.

 

[Sydla]

I point to the 12-4 and 13-3 seasons pretty unapologetically. It's really hard to build that and it's evidence that we've got a talented roster.

Everybody with any sense knows why the 4-12 happened. That season sucked, but the fact that it happened has no bearing on where the team is now.

Even with it though, we've been one of the 8-9 winningest teams in the league under Garrett. While rebuilding that 1-7 2010 team. I'd say it's the Garrett detractors who are using nebulous measures now that the won-loss metric is looking like an indication this coach knows what he's doing.

LOL.

So the lack of playoff success is a "nebulous" measure? That using playoff success going forward is nebulous and maybe unfair?

You guys, hahahahaha............

2010 was 7 seasons ago. Someone made a great point above. How long does it take to rebuild a football team? Are we done rebuilding? If not, when is the rebuild done? Can you guys then notify us when it's then fair to judge Garrett? That would be helpful.

 

[CyberB0b]

He's a decent head coach. He isn't horrible, but calling him great is laughable. 2 winning seasons and a single playoff game don't warrant the greatness tag.

 

[Idgit]

maybe because we watched other teams completely rebuild and win it all while we just treaded water.

How long did it take Pete Carrol to build that team? from the time he got there until they won it all?

Sean Payton at NO? I could go on but I hope you get the point.

Not sure what to say about that. Yes, other teams rebuilt faster during that time. Carroll was an established coach and they did a great job. Other teams are allowed to be good, too.

What matters is that we've consistently gotten better under Garrett, and that we've got a competitive team now.

 

[Sydla]

Not sure what to say about that. Yes, other teams rebuilt faster during that time. Carroll was an established coach and they did a great job. Other teams are allowed to be good, too.

What matters is that we've consistently gotten better under Garrett, and that we've got a competitive team now.

Does this mean we can start judging him now? Or do we have to wait a few more years?

 

[Idgit]

LOL.

So the lack of playoff success is a "nebulous" measure? That using playoff success going forward is nebulous and maybe unfair?

You guys, hahahahaha............

2010 was 7 seasons ago. Someone made a great point above. How long does it take to rebuild a football team? Are we done rebuilding? If not, when is the rebuild done? Can you guys then notify us when it's then fair to judge Garrett? That would be helpful.

Lack of playoff success is the newest measure. The old one was wins. What's nebulous is the changing of the measures as the team improves.

Playoff success is a measure of more than coaching. Playoff success measures the accumulation of everything a team does over more than one season. It's also unpredictable because it's a one-game, winner-take-all format.
You don't advance in the playoffs without being a good team, but it doesn't follow that teams that don't advance aren't good.

Our team is good because we win a high percentage of the games we play relative to everybody else. Our team is improving because that percentage has gotten better recently.

 

[gmoney112]

Haha tap the brakes a bit.

But, anyone denying this team has a ton of talent isn't being genuine. Man, this is an entirely different team than the one Wade ran into the ground.

Not only did we get what looks to be a franchise QB with a 4th round pick (We just can't develop QBs right? Sup Cooper Rush too), we have non debatably one of the best OLs and run games in the league. Just a few years ago poor Tony was getting killed behind UDFA. I still remember Wilfork carrying Costa like an infant and setting him down 5 yards behind the LOS.

And whatever, culture matters. Sure we sign some knuckleheads because of the potential reward, but that's life in the NFL. Most of the guys are buying in because they sound like robots repeating Jason's "get better every day" mantra. New England obviously has a culture, Carroll does too, most good clubs do. Gets everyone on the same page, this isn't unique to football, most well run companies do the same thing.

Comparing Jason to arguably the greatest coach of all time is stupid. Bill is a tier above almost every coach that has ever coached at this level. Jason has faults but he's on his way to being great. It looks like he's started to build a perennial contender. If that happens, only the haters would say he isn't great.

 

[Idgit]

Does this mean we can start judging him now? Or do we have to wait a few more years?

You're under the impression you haven't been judgmental previously?

You can start whenever you want I guess. I've been talking about wins during his entire tenure. If you want to look at something else, starting now, be my guest.

 

[Sydla]

Lack of playoff success is the newest measure. The old one was wins. What's nebulous is the changing of the measures as the team improves.

Playoff success is a measure of more than coaching. Playoff success measures the accumulation of everything a team does over more than one season. It's also unpredictable because it's a one-game, winner-take-all format.
You don't advance in the playoffs without being a good team, but it doesn't follow that teams that don't advance aren't good.

Our team is good because we win a high percentage of the games we play relative to everybody else. Our team is improving because that percentage has gotten better recently.

Playoff success is the most important measure. It wasn't just created last night. It's been the standard measure for every single coach that has ever coached in football because in the end, that's what they are playing for........... to win a championship.

This notion that the standards for Garrett have been a moving goalpost is laughable. He's being judged like every other fanbase has judged their coaches - is the guy good enough to win playoff games and win a championship?

You've basically done what you've always done - insulated Garrett. If we spit the bit again in the postseason the next couple of years, you can sit there and blame other factors - the team isn't complete enough, etc.

 

[Sydla]

You're under the impression you haven't been judgmental previously?

You can start whenever you want I guess. I've been talking about wins during his entire tenure. If you want to look at something else, starting now, be my guest.

Your judgment though is peculiar. Because you've set low bars for him to clear. And then when he clears it, you puff your chest out and claim what a great job he's done.

What good are double digit win seasons if you can't then advance in the playoffs? You've basically created this "test" for Garrett that as long as he wins you a nice number of regular season games, you can then give him his "A" or "B" and then turn around and blame any postseason failures on other factors.

I guess I just demand a bit more from an organization that prides itself on its history of winning Super Bowls.

 

[diefree666]

Well Belicheck did win a SB in his 7th year as head coach.

But what year with the Pats?

 

[diefree666]

Your judgment though is peculiar. Because you've set low bars for him to clear. And then when he clears it, you puff your chest out and claim what a great job he's done.

What good are double digit win seasons if you can't then advance in the playoffs? You've basically created this "test" for Garrett that as long as he wins you a nice number of regular season games, you can then give him his "A" or "B" and then turn around and blame any postseason failures on other factors.

I guess I just demand a bit more from an organization that prides itself on its history of winning Super Bowls.

its like any other home boy. Idgit slobbers all over Garrett and therefore he can do no wrong.

 

[diefree666]

those are good coaches also
Pete Carrol is more then a good coach he is great.
I'm too lazy to look up their rosters upon taking the helm.

Bottom line is that neither started out with as much Talent As Red Ball had coming here. He had a franchise QB and a team that just a year earlier won the division. NO and Seattle did NOT have a QB or that much talent. Yet those two coaches in just a few years won it all. Red Ball still has to win 2 games in the playoffs.

 

[Idgit]

Playoff success is the most important measure. It wasn't just created last night. It's been the standard measure for every single coach that has ever coached in football because in the end, that's what they are playing for........... to win a championship.

This notion that the standards for Garrett have been a moving goalpost is laughable. He's being judged like every other fanbase has judged their coaches - is the guy good enough to win playoff games and win a championship?

You've basically done what you've always done - insulated Garrett. If we spit the bit again in the postseason the next couple of years, you can sit there and blame other factors - the team isn't complete enough, etc.

Playoff success is a measure of organization effectiveness over time. Part of that is coaching. It's never been a standard for measuring coaching success. Coaches are measure by their teams' wins and losses. Especially when they take over losing teams and rebuild them since there's a period when good coaches can't be expected to take bad teams deep into the playoffs.

And the playoff win argument is most definitely a new criticism of Garrett's coaching that came about as he eventually assembled a winning team. It's the latest in a long line of new measures, as I said.

And you can suggest that I've 'insulated' Garrett all you want, but the facts suggest that I was right that he was building a good team this whole time and that everybody who said he was a terrible puppet of a coach--and that was the big majority of this board at one point--was dead wrong. I wasn't insulating. I was providing context, and I was right about the context.

 

[Idgit]

Bottom line is that neither started out with as much Talent As Red Ball had coming here. He had a franchise QB and a team that just a year earlier won the division. NO and Seattle did NOT have a QB or that much talent. Yet those two coaches in just a few years won it all. Red Ball still has to win 2 games in the playoffs.

Your bottom line is completely untrue.

 

[Idgit]

Your judgment though is peculiar. Because you've set low bars for him to clear. And then when he clears it, you puff your chest out and claim what a great job he's done.

What good are double digit win seasons if you can't then advance in the playoffs? You've basically created this "test" for Garrett that as long as he wins you a nice number of regular season games, you can then give him his "A" or "B" and then turn around and blame any postseason failures on other factors.

I guess I just demand a bit more from an organization that prides itself on its history of winning Super Bowls.

You're not demanding more. You're just unwilling to admit what we all know to be true about the quality of the team in Dallas over the last few seasons. Nobody but Cowboys fans who don't want to have been wrong is complaining about the direction in Dallas these days.

And my standard isn't peculiar at all. Does the team win at a higher rate than it did previously? Yes or no? Is the team still improving? Do the players and staff all support the HC? Pretty much the things every organization looks at when putting a team together.

 

[diefree666]

Your bottom line is completely untrue.

and you are full of crap. Now does that make you feel better?

FACT:
The Dallas Cowboys won the Eastern Division and a playoff game the YEAR BEFORE Red Ball became IC.
You trying to say that is untrue?

FACT: NO and Seattle had not won anything in the several years before Carrol and Payton came.
You trying to say that is untrue?

FACT:
Since Red Ball became coach the Dallas Cowboys have won 1 playoff game?
You trying to say that is untrue?

FACT:
NO and Seattle DID NOT HAVE A FRANCHISE QB when their coaches arrived?
You trying to say that is untrue?