Williams facing hazy future - Mosley - 5/24/08

[AdamJT13]

Here is the Steve Smith play.

Sorry, I thought you were talking about the other Steve Smith (for the Panthers) in the playoffs a few years ago.

Is anything Williams' fault?

It's his fault when it's his fault. It's not his fault when it's not his fault.

I know, it's a bizarre concept, blaming the people who are actually at fault. But that's just the way I am. If there are five players more worthy of blame on a play, I don't heap all of the blame on the sixth guy, like some people do. Funny how Roy ends up getting the majority of the blame whether he's the first, second, third, fourth, fifth or even sixth guy most responsible. Or even when he's nowhere close to being at fault, in some cases.

 

[AdamJT13]

So what? Dallas played a lot of cover-2 last year. Parcells played an overly conservative defense last year meant to protect against the big play. Deep balls into double-coverage are surely going to give you more turnovers.

As always, statistics don't tell the whole picture...

So nobody else played Cover 2 in 2006 except us?

 

[iceberg]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRB8Ca6UEgU

Here is the Steve Smith play. I guess this guy, Shango, doesn't know anything, either.

Adam13JT, I read the board. You are good, but your objectivity is in question here.

Is anything Williams' fault?

and someone is objective when they're in attack mode?

please.

the only reason some people have to go to extra lengths to defend roy is because the mob decided to go to far in blaming him for everything possible.

 

[BigDFan5]

I'm really beginning to think you work for Roy.

I would think that you are Roy but, given the rambling note directed at JJT a couple of years ago, you are clearly far too literate to actually BE Roy. And you haven't accused anyone of being gay.

Come on abersonc you are better than that arent you? You were wrong and got called on it. Admit it and move on, no need to pull this kind of post.

 

[khiladi]

So nobody else played Cover 2 in 2006 except us?

Dude... Seriously, stop with your nit-picking nonsense, simply because you want to win an argument...

Did I say nobody played over-2? Didn't I say that Parcells played an overly conservative defense? Did I not say Dallas played a lot of cover-2?

If you want to dispute the fact that interceptions aren't easier when a QB throws in double-coverage,surd state be my guest, but don't make absurd statements like this one...

 

[khiladi]

Except the coaches have said what the coverage was and what the safeties' responsibilties were in that coverage.

Have you ever heard of 'read-and-react'? Are players just suppose to be zombies out there?

Roy clearly said it was his fault and he could have adjusted. So when Roy admits it, you ignore him, and talk about Aaron Glenn absolving Roy of the blame?

 

[tomson75]

the only reason some people have to go to extra lengths to defend roy is because the mob decided to go to far in blaming him for everything possible.

Spot on. I was actually more irritated with Williams before this recent deluge of attacks towards him than I am as of late. The utter stupidity and pettiness of some of his detractors makes me want no part of that rabble...it doesn't hurt that one side continually provides more substance to the argument than the other.

 

[iceberg]

Dude... Seriously, stop with your nit-picking nonse, simply because you want to win an argument...

Did I say nobody played over-2? Didn't I say that Parcells played an overly conservative defense? Did I not say Dallas played a lot of cover-2?

These things are indisputable...

dude, those who cover roy go to just as annoying "reaches" as you feel he's going to.

for some it seems if you don't bash roy w/o mercy you're simply not objective. it's why i hate mob mentality.

there's nothing indisputable when it comes to roy hate cause so many "myths" fell aside as rage and emotion, not fact.

that's pretty indisputable. well, unless wah'ing is valid dispute.

 

[Hostile]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRB8Ca6UEgU

Here is the Steve Smith play. I guess this guy, Shango, doesn't know anything, either.

Adam13JT, I read the board. You are good, but your objectivity is in question here.

Is anything Williams' fault?

I'd like to point out that contrary to some people's perceptions Adam does blame Roy when he is to blame. He defends him when he feels he isn't to blame and does such a good job of it that some people can't stand it and create the perception that he is ALWAYS on Roy's side.

Here's proof from this very thread. See the comments in bold below. There are others too in many threads. People harp on the exact same plays and Adam continues to prove his point. I can't even imagine how many times these same plays have been gone over.

When Roy is wrong, Adam has no qualms about saying so. That isn't a two way street for a lot of posters who face off against him.

You do understand that a safety isn't always playing a deep zone, right? That sometimes he has other responsibilties.

Glenn has to know when he does and doesn't have help in that coverage.

Moss was never running "right at Roy," nor did Roy have "an area." Roy was responsible for Cooley, not Moss.

Roy was almost NEVER taken out on third downs, and he almost never was taken out in any passing situation.

Stevens beat Roy once, just like he beat Troy Polamalu in the Super Bowl (on the same play). Stevens' other touchdown was more Bradie James' fault.

What in the world is a Peter Pan? I've never heard that used in a football forum before.

Which play are you talking about? None of Smith's catches in that game come close to matching up with your description.

On Duckett's run, Roy came up to support on the outside, where the lead blocker was going (and blocked Ellis). Jones ran right up the middle, where Canty completely whiffed on the tackle in the backfield, Ayodele got manhandled and James was way too late shedding his blocker. If Roy came up to support in the middle, where Ayodele and James already were, there would have been nobody to defend the outside.

You can say "Roy misread the play," but he obviously was reading the lead blocker and expected the running back to follow. Whether he was supposed to read the lead blocker or not is the question. What is not debatable is that Canty whiffed on the tackle in the backfield and Ayodele and James played it poorly.

Roy didn't whiff on anything. He was blitzing off the offense's right edge. The TD went behind the left guard. There were four or five defenders lined up in the middle who were supposed to stop the Lions from running up the middle, and they failed.

He didn't give up or slide. He got tripped. And what about the two guys who actually were responsible for allowing the catch and missing the tackle? Funny how Roy gets blamed and they don't.

Roy played plenty of deep coverage last season and was never burned deep. He allowed one completion thrown more than 20 yards downfield, and that was when he was lined up close to the line of scrimmage and played man-to-man.

 

[khiladi]

dude, those who cover roy go to just as annoying "reaches" as you feel he's going to.

for some it seems if you don't bash roy w/o mercy you're simply not objective. it's why i hate mob mentality.

there's nothing indisputable when it comes to roy hate cause so many "myths" fell aside as rage and emotion, not fact.

that's pretty indisputable. well, unless wah'ing is valid dispute.

In this particular case, you have Mosley quoting Darren Woodson taking the blame that Roy isn't familiar with defenses. They kept it to simple for Roy, and now he is suffering. What this means is that Darren is directly making comments about how Roy isn't all that great in recognizing his responsibilities.

And here we have people acting as if Roy's coverage failures are a myth? Even here, Roy directly takes the blame and people are arguing that it wasn't his fault...

 

[AdamJT13]

Go look back at what Roy Williams said about the play, even he took blame.

I already explained Roy's quote.

Quarters coverage is a zone coverage.

Not in our scheme under Parcells or a lot of other schemes.

If Roy was "never" at fault like you claim

Please find one instance when I've EVER said Roy was "never" at fault. I've blamed Roy plenty of times. But here's the kicker -- I blame him when he's at fault, not when he isn't. Strange, I know.

why did Phillips get him the heck out of the deep part of the field for the most part?

For the same reason Phillips moved his strong safety to nickel linebacker before he came here, and the same reason other strong safeties such as Troy Polamalu have been moved to nickel linebacker -- they're better in the box than in deep coverage.

Here's a question for you -- why was Roy our only safety who was asked to play head-up man-to-man last season?

Again, Steve Smith abused him before the half of the playoff game.

Smith abused Reeves, not Roy.

I guess that was Newman's fault according to the way your explaining things

You might want to explain how a cornerback covering a receiver in the flat 8 yards off the ball is at fault for allowing a catch against a receiver 22 yards downfield, because I've never said anything like that.

 

[Hostile]

All of you guys are arguing and have no idea what actual coverage was even called by the D Cor. LOL.

Maybe two of the players weren't on the same page? Maybe they heard the wrong call in the huddle? Maybe one of them wasn't even paying attention in the huddle?

It's a futile argument.

You can tell coverage by how teams line up much of the time. The only difference would be a defensive audible for a blitz, especially for zone blitz. We haven't played much Zone blitz.

Roy's biggest problem in coverage is that he's undisciplined. He looks into the backfield way too much and never keeps his eyes on the receiver he's assigned to cover.

If he was watching Santana Moss on these TD's he would have seen he was running the post. Instead he's watching the QB and then doesn't have enough speed to get back into proper position to make a play on the ball.

Most DBs are taught to read the QBs eyes. That's how they jump a route and how they find out if he's locked onto one guy or can look off coverages. Now Roy is the only DB in the NFL who does this? Come on DC. This ain't your first rodeo man. You know better.

Haven't you even noticed that Roy is often caught leaning one way and then he has to regroup and go the exact opposite way to make the tackle?

Haven't you noticed that all DBs get caught this way from time to time?

I'm not saying Roy is great in coverage. So don't take this to the extreme and have me placing Roy on a pedestal of invincibility. He's got flaws to be sure, but I think people are magnifying them to the point of ridiculous. No one is as good as Roy is supposed to be. Ronnie Lott himself couldn't live up to the standard Roy is being held to.

 

[tomson75]

And here we have people acting as if Roy's coverage failures are a myth?

This is maddening. NO ONE is acting as if his failures are a myth. Some posters have defended individual plays that other posters have projected fault on Williams, where he wasn't to blame. Adam has said numerous times that Roy had a down year last year. Almost every "apologist" on this forum has expressed their desire to see Williams improve his play.

Even here, Roy directly takes the blame and people are arguing that it wasn't his fault...

...again, as has been pointed out several times now, this was referring to a different play.

 

[AdamJT13]

Dude... Seriously, stop with your nit-picking nonsense, simply because you want to win an argument...

Did I say nobody played over-2? Didn't I say that Parcells played an overly conservative defense? Did I not say Dallas played a lot of cover-2?

If you want to dispute the fact that interceptions aren't easier when a QB throws in double-coverage,surd state be my guest, but don't make absurd statements like this one...

When Goldenrichards83 said Roy led all safeties in turnovers, you claimed it was only because we played a lot of Cover 2. Well, didn't other teams play a lot of Cover 2, too? Don't some teams play even more Cover 2 than we did? If so, why don't their safeties get as many "easy" interceptions as Roy did? You'd think there would be lots of safeties with more than five interceptions every season, if someone as slow and inept as Roy Williams can get five picks in a season.

(And on a separate note, how has Keith Davis managed to get ZERO interceptions in all of his years of playing Cover 2?)

 

[Rampage]

We've been talking about the first play -- Roy was talking about the second play, which is the only one when he even had a chance to double-team Moss. But in order to do that and stop the play, he would have had to anticipate leaving his primary responsibility (Cooley again) before he had a complete read on it. He did that, just not quite soon enough. He was blaming himself for not anticipating the play sooner, not because he blew his responsibility. He explained his quote a few days after that game. He was trying to step up and take the blame, even though he was put in a difficult position and there wasn't much he could do. Like Parcells said, it really wasn't Roy's fault.

I already explained Roy's quote.




Smith abused Reeves, not Roy.

holy excuses batman!

 

[khiladi]

This is maddening. NO ONE is acting as if his failures are a myth. Some posters have defended individual plays that other posters have projected fault on Williams, where he wasn't to blame. Adam has said numerous times that Roy had a down year last year. Almost every "apologist" on this forum has expressed their desire to see Williams improve his play.



...again, as has been pointed out several times now, this was referring to a different play.

And Daren Woodson's comments extend to beyond 2007... Is he an apologist?

 

[khiladi]

When Goldenrichards83 said Roy led all safeties in turnovers, you claimed it was only because we played a lot of Cover 2. Well, didn't other teams play a lot of Cover 2, too? Don't some teams play even more Cover 2 than we did? If so, why don't their safeties get as many "easy" interceptions as Roy did? You'd think there would be lots of safeties with more than five interceptions every season, if someone as slow and inept as Roy Williams can get five picks in a season.

(And on a separate note, how has Keith Davis managed to get ZERO interceptions in all of his years of playing Cover 2?)

I know what I said Adam, and I never said that it was only because we played cover-2. Your so full of yourself, now your telling an me what I said, when I said it? Further, I just quoted you what I said and your telling me different??? Wow... BTW, your the one changing words. Now your qualifying your words after the fact with "teams play a lot of cover-2"...

Further, so what if other teams played cover-2? Does that in anyway detract from what I was saying, and that was the scheme impacted Roy's overall statistics. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to deduce this fact , considering Roy's defense changed the next year and his production decreased... Even he was saying his production dropped because of the scheme..

So, what now?

 

[Cowboyz88]

Adam has said numerous times that Roy had a down year last year.

That's just it...Adam (and his buddies) soft-peddles most of Roy's faults to the point of showing none of the objectivity that he claims to have, and some of you just lap it up.

Most of us saw that Roy had a terrible year, yet Adam uses words to the effect of "down," "not as good as before," etc., which, again, do nothing but attempt to lighten Roy's actual play.

So, perhaps they should listen to Roy's own teammate, Terrence Newman's, opinion:

"He just sometimes gets a kind of a deer-in-the-headlights type of reaction to some plays."

"He had a bad season, as far as coverage."

He just said these things on Sports Sunday with Doocy.

So I guess we can add Newman to ALL THE OTHERS who have noted Roy's "bad season," but I'm sure some of you will just continue to listen to Adam's interpretation of Stats, Inc as law.

 

[28 Joker]

and someone is objective when they're in attack mode?

please.

the only reason some people have to go to extra lengths to defend roy is because the mob decided to go to far in blaming him for everything possible.

Please. Poor Roy Williams. He is being attacked. If you are critical of Williams' coverage weaknesses, which are well documented, you are "attacking" him.

I'm in Roy Williams Homer Land.

 

[tomson75]

That's just it...Adam (and his buddies) soft-peddles most of Roy's faults to the point of showing none of the objectivity that he claims to have, and some of you just lap it up.

Most of us saw that Roy had a terrible year, yet Adam uses words to the effect of "down," "not as good as before," etc., which, again, do nothing but attempt to lighten Roy's actual play.

So, perhaps they should listen to Roy's own teammate, Terrence Newman's, opinion:

"He just sometimes gets a kind of a deer-in-the-headlights type of reaction to some plays."

"He had a bad season, as far as coverage."


He just said these things on Sports Sunday with Doocy.

So I guess we can add Newman to ALL THE OTHERS who have noted Roy's "bad season," but I'm sure some of you will just continue to listen to Adam's interpretation of Stats, Inc as law.

Yet you respond with "terrible year". If you can't see the blinding hypocrisy in your exaggeration , I'd rather talk to my dog.