Williams facing hazy future - Mosley - 5/24/08

Rampage

Benched
Messages
24,117
Reaction score
2
Goldenrichards83;2094950 said:
I was merely pointed out that there is another player who has a contract dispute but he's here so you give Hamlin a pass. No big deal, however a guy whos been here 8 years never miss one OTA and has over 500 tackles 19 ints 56 Pdef you have a major problem with. Seems odd to me.
yes he's put up good numbers in his career but was lacking in all of those numbers except tackles last year. my gripe with him not being there is the fact that I think he could use the extra work more so than others.
 

AdamJT13

Salary Cap Analyst
Messages
16,583
Reaction score
4,529
FuzzyLumpkins;2094884 said:
They have to excuse him. Its against the CBA to forbid him.

They don't have to excuse him. Plenty of players miss OTAs without being excused, and plenty of coaches and GMs complain about players missing them. The CBA only prohibits teams from punishing players for missing them, because they're not mandatory.
 

Goldenrichards83

Active Member
Messages
1,612
Reaction score
0
AdamJT13;2094954 said:
For the record, I don't agree with Roy missing any of the OTAs. He should be there. But nobody threw a fit last year when a bunch of players missed some of the OTAs, including DeMarcus Ware, Terrell Owens, Terry Glenn, Jason Ferguson, Aaron Glenn and several other players. And they were all excused absences, just like Roy's is this year.
Please tell me thats not true. :bang2: And you guys given Roy all this flack. C'mon now.
 

iceberg

rock music matters
Messages
34,436
Reaction score
7,953
Goldenrichards83;2094964 said:
Please tell me thats not true. :bang2: And you guys given Roy all this flack. C'mon now.

but all those players are fine and don't need the work.

it doesn't matter which excuse you take away, they've got so many more to go to.
 

Goldenrichards83

Active Member
Messages
1,612
Reaction score
0
Rampage;2094958 said:
yes he's put up good numbers in his career but was lacking in all of those numbers except tackles last year. my gripe with him not being there is the fact that I think he could use the extra work more so than others.
Agreed! I am dissaponted that he isn't there. He complained about not fitting the scheme. That's why there has to be a really good reason for him not to be there.
 

Hostile

The Duke
Messages
119,565
Reaction score
4,544
AdamJT13;2094954 said:
For the record, I don't agree with Roy missing any of the OTAs. He should be there. But nobody threw a fit last year when a bunch of players missed some of the OTAs, including DeMarcus Ware, Terrell Owens, Terry Glenn, Jason Ferguson, Aaron Glenn and several other players. And they were all excused absences, just like Roy's is this year.
Fits weren't as much fun in 2007. I thought you knew that.

:wink2:
 

juck

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,246
Reaction score
244
AsthmaField;2093744 said:
Before we flat out cut Roy, I don't know why we wouldn't try him at the "Mo" ILB spot. Let him play there some and see if he fits.

He's about as big as Donnie Edwards and has similar strengths. All of Roy's shortcomings would be gone at that spot. Plus, his instincts (to run to the ball) would fit right in there.

If his heart is into it, I think he'd be a terrific ILB (in Wade's defense). He'd be all over the place with that speed and the "Mo" ILB position in Wade's scheme is all about run and hit. Not much thinking there, just reacting to the ball, which is what Roy does best.

Plus, he should be able to cover plenty well for that spot.

I know many will disagree... but it's worth a shot before we give up on him completely, IMO. He's too talented at getting to the ball to throw away.

If we do I bet he ends up as a 4-3 OLB like Derrick Brooks... because the safety position has evolved too much for him these days.

I agree RW should be a linebacker.Whats up with King Diamond?lol
 

DallasEast

Cowboys 24/7/365
Staff member
Messages
62,800
Reaction score
65,181
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
Yada, yada, yada. People don't like Roy Williams for blah, blah, blah. Big whoop. Back to the most recent Roy Williams myth as it pertains to quarters coverage. Disclaimer: if you don't like Roy Williams or think you know defense, but you're truly only living in a Madden world, this post isn't for you. And yeah, yeah, it would be good for you to read the entire thing since you're going to ignore this disclaimer anyway.

Linky (for ESPN Insider subscribers)--> http://proxy.espn.go.com/ncf/columns/story?columnist=davie&id=1628734


Football 101: Quarters coverage

By Bob Davie
Special to ESPN.com
(Archive)




Updated: November 7, 2003, 1:56 PM ET

The most popular zone pass coverage played in college football today is something called quarters coverage. The reason it's so popular is because it is a coverage that can be played on running downs as well as in passing situations.

As in any coverage, there are many variations and changeups that make this an effective catchall defensive scheme. Basically every team in college football plays some combination of quarters coverage. Oklahoma, for example, has always taken advantage of quarters coverage.

In today's class we will show how the basic quarters coverage is played and some variations. We will also look at some ways offensive teams attack it.


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]What is quarters coverage?[/FONT]

Quarters pass coverage is a zone principle with the defense dividing the deep passing zones into fourths. Corners play the two outside fourths and safeties play the two inside fourths. The basic alignment has the quarters positioned seven yards from the line of scrimmage and the safeties positioned eight yards from the line of scrimmage.

01.jpg


The linebackers divide the underneath coverage into three passing zones. The outside linebackers play the flat area and the middle linebacker works the hook and curl. The outside linebackers hang in the curl as long as they can and only carry to the flat if their flat is threatened.

02.jpg


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]How the basic coverage works[/FONT]

In quarters coverage, most teams play a man-to-man concept with any receiver that comes into their basic zone.

Corners

The corners are aligned on the No. 1 receiver (widest in the formation) and play a man-to-man concept as long as the wide receiver is in his zone or fourth. Corners may or may not get help from the safeties, depending on what the No. 2 receiver does. Even though the corner is aligned on the No. 1 receiver, he must also have awareness of what route the No. 2 receiver runs. If the No. 2 receiver does not run a route to threaten the corner's zone, he can then play man-to-man on the No. 1.

03.jpg


If the No. 2 receiver does run a route that threatens the corner's zone, the corner must now stay outside so that he is in a position to zone his quarter and then end up playing the No. 2 receiver.

04.jpg


Safeties

The safeties, aligned at eight yards deep, read the intention of the No. 2 receiver to their side. In this case, the strong safety reads the tight end and the free safety reads through to the running back. The great advantage of quarters coverage is that you have immediate run support if a run develops. If it is a run, the safeties support immediately, providing a 9-man front.

05.jpg


If the No. 2 receivers show pass, the safeties then play zone in their quarters. If the No. 2 receiver threatens their quarter, they play a man-to-man technique as long as the receiver is in their zone. (I just hope that some can comprehend what Davie says next :banghead: ) If the No. 2 receiver runs a route that immediately takes him out of the strong safety's zone, he simply zones his quarter.

06.jpg


Underneath coverage

With the secondary playing a four-deep concept, someone has to carry any receiver that goes to the flat. The two outside linebackers play a curl/flat technique, which means they hang in the curl as long as they can until someone threatens the widest area of the field.

The mike linebacker works hook-to-curl to the side of the passing strength (the side with three eligible receivers).

07.jpg


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Advantages of quarters coverage[/FONT]

1. The defense can protect the deep passing zones with four deep defenders if the wide receivers all go vertical. In two-deep coverages, there are only two deep defenders and in three-deep coverage, there are only three deep defenders.

08.jpg


2. With the safeties reading off the No. 2 receivers and the corners basically playing man-to-man on the No. 1 receivers, the defense gets great run support. The strong safety reads the tight end and the free safety reads through to the back to his side. If run shows, both safeties immediately play the run.

09.jpg


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Attacking quarters coverage[/FONT]

1. One obvious way to attack quarters coverage is with the play-action pass. Showing run causes the safeties to attack and leaves the corners locked man-to-man on the wide receivers. The corners must work inside and prevent the post route because he has no help. The safeties have been used up by the run fake.

10.jpg


2. Offenses can also attack quarters coverage by throwing the ball to wide receivers in the underneath flat area. With the corners playing deep quarters, it is difficult to stop the hitch or quick out by a wide receiver. The linebackers responsible for the flat simply can't get there fast enough to affect the throw.

11.jpg


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Changeups to quarters coverage[/FONT]

1. If the defense wants to take away the quick passing game to the wide receivers, they can align their corners in a bump technique. The corner then plays tight man-to-man on any wide receiver route other than a shallow crossing route. If the corner is aligned in bump, the outside linebackers must run man-to-man with the No. 2 receiver if he threatens through to the outside quarter. Because the corners are up in bump-and-run coverage, they can't see the release of the No. 2 receiver and the outside linebacker must protect him if the No. 2 runs through his zone.

12.jpg


2. Another changeup to quarters is a coverage called quarter-quarter-half. In this coverage, the defense still plays a quarters concept to the formation or tight end/flanker side. The change is to the weak side where they play a half-field concept. This means the corner to the split-end side plays the flat instead of the outside quarter. The safety to the weak side plays half-field coverage instead of the inside quarter. In this concept, the defense basically doubles the split end or wide receiver to the weak side of the formation.

13.jpg


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Conclusion[/FONT]

Quarters coverage is a popular scheme in college football that can provide excellent run support because of the safeties' alignment and keys. It is also a safe coverage because the defense has four defensive backs to protect against the offense's four vertical receiving routes. The defense must have excellent corners to play this coverage because many times the safeties get used up by play-action fakes and by the No. 2 receivers' routes. Many times the corners are left to play one-on-one coverage on wide receivers.

Editor's note: As architect of Texas A&M's Wrecking Crew defense (1989-93), Notre Dame defensive coordinator (1994-96) and head coach of the Irish (1997-2001), Bob Davie has been recognized as a top Xs and Os coach.
 

28 Joker

28 Joker
Messages
7,878
Reaction score
1
AdamJT13;2094946 said:
Roy didn't bite on a play fake, he just got beaten.



Link?

James was never beaten deep in Cover-2 against the Saints, so I find it curious that he would say something like that about the Cover-2 after the Saints game. And I find it curiouser that that quote is nowhere to be found on the Internet or in the archives on this site, where just about everything gets posted. Not to mention that MacMahon didn't replace Matt Mosley until about seven months after the Saints game.



Isn't that what I just explained about Stevens' second touchdown in our game against the Seahawks? Yeah, I did.




Not only did the Cowboys say they were in Quarters, not Cover-2, you can tell from the cornerbacks' coverage that it wasn't Cover-2.




Like I already said, Roy blamed himself for not making the play, but he was not the one who was at fault for getting beaten.

Here's what Roy said, "Honestly those weren't my plays, but yeah, I took it upon myself to say that's my fault."

Everyone at Valley Ranch -- from Bill Parcells to Aaron Glenn -- said that Moss was not Roy's responsibility.




That's Quarters coverage.

I don't know why you're even trying to argue this point. You can either agree with everyone on the Cowboys or make the usual claim that everyone must be lying.



I'll get the Bradie James link.


Where is your llink saying Dallas was in quarters coverage?


According to Pro Football Weekly, a very solid source, Dallas was in cover-2 on the Moss TDs.

"Other than the running game, one of the biggest concerns as the team approaches the playoffs has been the play of the secondary when utilizing the cover-2 defense.

It has been a problem going all the way back to week two, in the fourth quarter collapse against the Commanders.

"namely at safety"

According to scouts, the Cowboys are now showing cover-2 and rotating Roy Williams into a "robber" position, so he can jump underneath routes.

Hmm. Taking deep half responsibilities away from Williams. What a concept. Wade Phillips didn't do it either, I guess.

Again, Roy takes the blame in his own words.'

Nice spin. Go to the Dec. 19 2005 entry. I never claimed anyone was lying, by the way.

While Aaron Glenn is responsible, too, so is Roy Williams. There is no excuse for biting on that underneath route that was covered by two separate people while Moss threatens the corner closest to you. Again, the conservative Bill Parcells is going to leave Glenn one-on-one with Santana Moss after he was beatten the first time. Glenn with no safety help over the top in a six point game is tough to sell. If Williams isn't his deep help over the top, who is?

http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFL/NFC/NFC+East/Dallas/WWHI/default.htm?channel=2005
 

28 Joker

28 Joker
Messages
7,878
Reaction score
1
http://www.blueandsilverreport.com/2006/12/10/ Go to "Stolen Mail".

Here you go. Read Rafael Vela's post game Saints/Cowboys game recap.

Vela, who is known for his knowledge of the game and Xs and Os, will tell you about Williams getting roasted on the play to Devrey Henderson. Also, he will tell you about the play before the half that Williams gave up. Mike Zimmer was a cover-2 defensive coordinater, by the way.

Albert Breer was brought to the DMN as an answer to Vela's knowledge of Xs and Os and analysis of the games. So, don't even try to discredit him with your spin.
 

28 Joker

28 Joker
Messages
7,878
Reaction score
1
http://www.blueandsilverreport.com/2006/12/10/ See: "Stolen Mail"; Dec. 10

"Five words that give me pause for concern: Roy Williams Cowboys for Life".

"How bad is he going to get when he loses a step"?

Rafael Vela (on Roy Williams, after the 20-21 loss to Seattle in the playoffs)

According to Vela, the Seahawks had 6 plays over 15 yards, and Williams was involved in allowing 16 of the Seahawks 21 points.

According to Vela, Williams had "tread marks on his jersey".

1. Bobby Ingram caught a pass out of the slot, and Williams took a poor angle and missed the tackle. Engram gets passed him and keeps running for 36 yards.

2. Jeremy Stevens 15 YD TD on an out route right over Williams

3.Jeremy Stevens seam route for a 37 yard TD.

(Williams once again reacts poorly to the develping play while his underneath coverage gets smoked and the TE bears down on him.) Again, James was smoked for the entire month of December, but Williams isn't on high alert for the TE to get to his deep third of the field. )

4. Shaun Alexander runs 20 yards from the Seattle 2 to seal the game.

He went that way, Roy. He should know that the NFL MVP will get the ball in that situation. Would you run the fullback up the clogged middle of a stout 3-4 defense with the game on the line?

I don't think so.
 

28 Joker

28 Joker
Messages
7,878
Reaction score
1
http://cowboys.beloblog.com/archives/2007/08/williams_lateseason_coverage_woes.html

"Williams' Late Season Coverage Woes (by: Tim MacMahan)

Here is the link for the Bradie James comments about two seam routes dropped in between himself and Roy Williams. The 25 yard pass to Schobel and the 37 yard pass to Jerramy Stevens in the playoff game for a TD.

Bradie James clearly states Dallas was playing Cover-2 in those situations.

James says that he'll take the blame, but he thought he had safety help over the top (that would be Roy Williams). I'll quote him again:

"That's why you have a safety positon. That's the last line of defense".

I guess when Chris Cooley or any TE or receiver beats Williams in deep zone, its more the other guys fault. O.K. I think both players were vulnerable during this time frame. James agrees. You seem to want to pin most of the blame on James. That seems biased towards him and in favor of Williams. There was equal blame, including Parcells' coaching, but Williams, (the "Pro Bowl" safety) was the last line of defense. James is the underneath guy in coverage. Roy's last line of defense in deep zone is like the French Army. It won't stand up and defend the territory.

In the interview, James talks about teams scheming them (himself and Williams) late in the 2006 season.

Also, MacMahan talks about Anthony Henry being "left on an island" after Roy Williams bites on a Drew Brees play fake. The pass was for 50 yards. Williams, in deep patrol again, hung his corner out to dry.

MacMahan talks about Reggie Bush's 61 yard screen pass in the flat where Williams was located. Williams didn't get off the offensive lineman until he was pushed way down the field. That is a lack of physicality.

I can still see the Chiefs doing this to him as Larry Johnson runs the sweep to the outside. Roy just tucked his tail and retreated and ran from the contact or lineman. He didn't seem to have the will to stop the play or at least, take out a blocker so help could arrive.

It doesn't matter what I think. Like DC Fanatic says, if Roy Williams plays this year like he did last year, he's gone in 2009.

I don't see how the Cowboys can trust him in December or January when you look at his last two seasons play in those months.

According to Norm Hitzges, Brian Stewart told him after the draft this:

When Hitzges asked Stewart if drafting and getting Pacman would allow them to get Roy Williams off the field more, Stewart paused, and said "yes".

I guess I need a link for that one, too. Huh?
 

odog422

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,658
Reaction score
311
41gy#;2095120 said:
http://cowboys.beloblog.com/archives/2007/08/williams_lateseason_coverage_woes.html

"Williams' Late Season Coverage Woes (by: Tim MacMahan)

Here is the link for the Bradie James comments about two seam routes dropped in between himself and Roy Williams. The 25 yard pass to Schobel and the 37 yard pass to Jerramy Stevens in the playoff game for a TD.

Bradie James clearly states Dallas was playing Cover-2 in those situations.

James says that he'll take the blame, but he thought he had safety help over the top (that would be Roy Williams). I'll quote him again:

"That's why you have a safety positon. That's the last line of defense".

I guess when Chris Cooley or any TE or receiver beats Williams in deep zone, its more the other guys fault. O.K. I think both players were vulnerable during this time frame. James agrees. You seem to want to pin most of the blame on James. That seems biased towards him and in favor of Williams. There was equal blame, including Parcells' coaching, but Williams, (the "Pro Bowl" safety) was the last line of defense. James is the underneath guy in coverage. Roy's last line of defense in deep zone is like the French Army. It won't stand up and defend the territory.

In the interview, James talks about teams scheming them (himself and Williams) late in the 2006 season.

Also, MacMahan talks about Anthony Henry being "left on an island" after Roy Williams bites on a Drew Brees play fake. The pass was for 50 yards. Williams, in deep patrol again, hung his corner out to dry.

MacMahan talks about Reggie Bush's 61 yard screen pass in the flat where Williams was located. Williams didn't get off the offensive lineman until he was pushed way down the field. That is a lack of physicality.

I can still see the Chiefs doing this to him as Larry Johnson runs the sweep to the outside. Roy just tucked his tail and retreated and ran from the contact or lineman. He didn't seem to have the will to stop the play or at least, take out a blocker so help could arrive.

It doesn't matter what I think. Like DC Fanatic says, if Roy Williams plays this year like he did last year, he's gone in 2009.

I don't see how the Cowboys can trust him in December or January when you look at his last two seasons play in those months.

According to Norm Hitzges, Brian Stewart told him after the draft this:

When Hitzges asked Stewart if drafting and getting Pacman would allow them to get Roy Williams off the field more, Stewart paused, and said "yes".

I guess I need a link for that one, too. Huh?

Jesus Christ you're still going??? On this page all by yourself at that.

Wow.
 

BuckyG

New Member
Messages
110
Reaction score
0
AsthmaField;2093744 said:
Before we flat out cut Roy, I don't know why we wouldn't try him at the "Mo" ILB spot. Let him play there some and see if he fits.

He's about as big as Donnie Edwards and has similar strengths. All of Roy's shortcomings would be gone at that spot. Plus, his instincts (to run to the ball) would fit right in there.

If his heart is into it, I think he'd be a terrific ILB (in Wade's defense). He'd be all over the place with that speed and the "Mo" ILB position in Wade's scheme is all about run and hit. Not much thinking there, just reacting to the ball, which is what Roy does best.

Plus, he should be able to cover plenty well for that spot.

I know many will disagree... but it's worth a shot before we give up on him completely, IMO. He's too talented at getting to the ball to throw away.

If we do I bet he ends up as a 4-3 OLB like Derrick Brooks... because the safety position has evolved too much for him these days.

I don't see Williams as an effective every-down inside linebacker in a 3-4. He's not particularly fast at 230 pounds, and I think he'd need to bulk up to 240-245 to take the inside pounding, and I don't think he'd have enough speed and quickness at that weight, and I'm not sure his frame is really suited to carry that much weight effectively. I could see him possibly as a weakside OLB in a 4-3, where he could conceivably play at 230-235.

What he should do is work like a demon and get into rock hard shape at 215-220 pounds. He'd hopefully pick up some speed and quickness and be able to get deep more easily.
 

bbgun

Benched
Messages
27,869
Reaction score
6
I seem to remember a special "TO Zone" being created in the wake of his signing, seeing as how all the posts were choking the front page. Time for history to repeat itself.
 

Bach

Benched
Messages
7,645
Reaction score
0
bbgun;2095182 said:
I seem to remember a special "TO Zone" being created in the wake of his signing, seeing as how all the posts were choking the front page. Time for history to repeat itself.

I don't think another "TO Zone" will help matters.
 

Hostile

The Duke
Messages
119,565
Reaction score
4,544
bbgun;2095182 said:
I seem to remember a special "TO Zone" being created in the wake of his signing, seeing as how all the posts were choking the front page. Time for history to repeat itself.
People hated that Zone. I doubt we ever do it again and yes, we have considered it a couple of times.
 

dcfanatic

Benched
Messages
10,408
Reaction score
1
Can I just say something here.

I know we are all on edge when it comes to discussing Roy.

To get this worked up about an issue involving our sports team just tells me that the end result is really us just wanting the best from the players so that we can win a championship.

When we perceive that 'any' of the players are not giving it their all, doesn't matter whether that opinion is right or wrong, we get worked up into a frenzy.

I am applauding the effort on both sides of this thing because it really just shows that even when fighting with 'our own' we are some of the most passionate fans on the planet.

I think Jerry Jones would be proud of this thread.

He certainly wouldn't agree with everything in it, but he could probably appeciate it and relate to it because it clearly shows that we love this freaking team just as much as he does.
 

28 Joker

28 Joker
Messages
7,878
Reaction score
1
http://www.dallascowboys.com/news.cfm?id=725DB0F5-AB25-7BD9-5A33F68D8C7B6129

Here is the complete quote from Roy Williams on the Moss TDs. The USA Today one left out the end of what he said. Again, his own words.

"I saw Moss just blazing down the seam, so I tried to help out, but I wasn't able to make a play on him. Point blank", Williams said after the game. "I should have read it faster. I should have taken the proper angle to get my hands up on the ball. It's my fault. I take total blame for that. So, I'll take all the blame. I don't care".

Roy Williams (on the two Santana Moss TDs)

I put this up, because Williams is actually taking the blame. This is something that he doesn't do very often. He said exactly what I have been arguing. He didn't read the 2nd play fast enough, and he took a bad angle to the ball and couldn't make a play on it after Moss separated from Glenn on the inside. Glenn took blame as well. On the first one, Newman covers Cooley in his zone and forces him inside to the linebacker. The linebacker has Cooley. Roy completley turns his hips away from Moss and bites on Cooley, but when Cooley broke free, the ball was already in the air. The underneath coverage had him covered. As a result, Roy can't give Glenn the over the top help in time. Williams misread the play.
 
Top