Williams Overrated, counterpoint

[burmafrd]

No goofier then anything YOU have posted.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Wasn't Brian Urlacher Prisco's most overrated last year?

Seemed to work out ok for him.

Roy's one of the top 5 safeties in the game. Unless you've watched Dawkins, Polamalu, Reed, Taylor and Williams every game of their careers, noone can really rank them. They're all phenomenal. But unless you watch them, you can't know how many times each got burnt, each had an INT put in their lap by a tipped pass, each made a spectacular play, each missed a tackle. Or how they are used in their system - are they playing center field? Are they low in the box constantly? Are they allowed free roam?

There's no way to really rank them. But if you're being fair, Roy is a top 5 safety. You could put him anywhere from 1 to 5 and be correct. He's been doing it consistently for years now.

Reed is so clearly #1 it's scary. He's head and shoulders above all the rest.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

No goofier then anything YOU have posted.

LOL!


It must be cool for you that school has ended and now you can post all day.

 

[superpunk]

Reed is so clearly #1 it's scary. He's head and shoulders above all the rest.

Why????

 

[burmafrd]

Winicki does not have to give sources or reasons or evidence- we are supposed to just take what he posts as gospel.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Peyton Manning doesnt have to scramble bc he has great awareness and arm. He doesnt have to be a scrambler.

QBs can come in many flavors and still be a complete QB. You don't have to be able to scramble to be a complete QB. If you O-line doesn't have any leaks why would you ever need to scramble? On the other hand, you do in fact have to be able to cover to be a complete safety. I use just the term safety to include both free and strong safety positions.

Tiki Barber doesnt have to be a power back, he is a balanced back. Thats what makes him so good, he can run and catch.

I will use your very own words as a rebuttal. A balanced safety would be able to defened the run as well as the pass. A power back is a style of running back. A hitting safety is a style of safety. A scrambling QB is a style of QB. None of that has anything to do with being a complete player.

Now that I've made my point, I would also like to point out the fact that there arn't many if any safeties I would take over Roy Williams currently. Though there are a few I really like.

 

[Vintage]

Why????

Because he is a complete safety.

He can play in run support and cover. His coverage skills are elite for a S, and his run support is good.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Why????

Easy.

He's the most complete SS on the planet. He combines fine tackling technique with solid anticipation along the line of scrimmage.

In pass coverage there is no better SS-- period.


While Roy brings the intangible of intimidation his sloppy tackling technique (always looking for the "kill shot" as opposed to just wrapping someone up) and his below average coverage skills keep him from the top spot.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Winicki does not have to give sources or reasons or evidence- we are supposed to just take what he posts as gospel.

You're grumpy today burmashave.

What's the matter? Someone eat your last scone?

 

[Vintage]

Easy.

He's the most complete SS on the planet. He combines fine tackling technique with solid anticipation along the line of scrimmage.

In pass coverage there is no better SS-- period.


While Roy brings the intangible of intimidation his sloppy tackling technique (always looking for the "kill shot" as opposed to just wrapping someone up) and his below average coverage skills keep him from the top spot.

The sloppy tackling stuff by Roy doesn't really bother me....he usually makes the tackle anyway. I could care less if its not a textbook tackle, as long as the tackle is made. And Roy does that. Very well.

The other stuff though, is spot on.

 

[Hostile]

Winicki does not have to give sources or reasons or evidence- we are supposed to just take what he posts as gospel.

You mean it isn't gospel?



I need a new cult.

:wink2:

 

[MichaelWinicki]

You mean it isn't gospel?



I need a new cult.

:wink2:

I guess my donation box is going to be a little emptier from now on.

 

[Cowboy Willie]

Last year when we played the Skins in that Monday night game, Moss burned us pretty bad. Considering the guy has world class speed, Roy was just behind him on both plays. That being said, the guy can cover, but the Defensive play was wrong. You can't expect a 235lb( basically, he is) to cover a 5'10" 185lb guy like Moss.

 

[superpunk]

And you two don't think that it is just possible that the defense Reed plays on might make him look better than he actually is? In 2003, the Ravens pass rush ranked first in sacks - they were third in total defense. The Cowboys, while ranking 1st in total D - were ranked 21 in sacks. In 2004, Baltimore's pass rush did drop - to 12th. the Cowboys ranked 26th.

This might be viewed as an excuse - I don't care too much. When you look at the safeties who put up numbers that are so impressive - who don't have a reputation for getting beat - for the most part, they are playing for defenses with top-level pass rushes. Better pass rush = more opportunities for picks, less opportunities for offenses to get off decent deep chances.

In Williams four years in the league, the Cowboys have ranked 31, 21, 26, and 14th. In Reed's first three full years - the Ravens ranked 22, 1, and 12th.

I think that's a slight advantage to Reed, don't you? I can think of several of his INTs in 2003 (I lived in Westminster, MD - I saw nearly every game as Ravens games on CBS blocked out Fox's NFC broadcast - the final straw in my life as a non-DirecTV subscriber) that were just tipped passes Reed was in the right place for. That is not a knock, I'm just attempting to share a fuller picture.

I agree, the list at Safety begins with Reed. But as I said earlier, unless you are watching all these safeties all the time, there is no way to accurately rank 1-5. Roy Williams is somewhere in that top 5. Where exactly, makes no matter. But he is a top 5, elite safety.

 

[Hostile]

I guess my donation box is going to be a little emptier from now on.

Yes, Bagwam Shree Winicki, I'll be moving on. Your gospel no longer rings true to me.

 

[Vintage]

If there is no way to accurately rank the top 5 safeties unless you watch them all the time, how is it even possible to rank the safeties at all?

How can you say Roy is top 5 then?

Do you watch the other 27 SS all the time to know Roy is better than them?

 

[superpunk]

If there is no way to accurately rank the top 5 safeties unless you watch them all the time, how is it even possible to rank the safeties at all?

How can you say Roy is top 5 then?

Do you watch the other 27 SS all the time to know Roy is better than them?

I think it's pretty easy to see who the truly elite safeties in the league are. In that realm, it's a judgement call on who you put at the top. You've got a realm of guys who change games, followed by guys who are solid, occassionally more, and solid, and then bad guys. 5 was an arbitrary number.

 

[JIGGYFLY]

I tried to broach this topic last year and was shot down but I have noticed that we do not even get the kill shots from Roy anymore he started going for peoples legs a lot more last year. So what exactly is his value to the team if he loses that intimidation factor?

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Yes, Bagwam Shree Winicki, I'll be moving on. Your gospel no longer rings true to me.

Oh sure!

Burmashave has turned you against me!

If I had the capacity to hate...

 

[superpunk]

Personally, JF, I think Roy is aiming for the hip, which hurts like hell. So there is still some intimidation for opposing receivers.

But nothing electrifies people as much as just blasting your man in the other direction. The hip shot may hurt more, but Roy needs to get back to the boom - I agree.