Dallas FA signings need fixing

[Toruk_Makto]

What has that strategy done for us? How many championships do we have about 25 years?

This strategy isn't 25 years old. If anything during that stretch the strategy has been to spend exteavegently on outside "name" players.

Our more measured approach post Carr has actually been followed by 2 of the beat seasons we've seen in nearly a decade.

Try again.

 

[diefree666]

This strategy isn't 25 years old. If anything during that stretch the strategy has been to spend exteavegently on outside "name" players.

Our more measured approach post Carr has actually been followed by 2 of the beat seasons we've seen in nearly a decade.

Try again.

and both these great seasons you slobber about ended HOW?

 

[diefree666]

Paea was playing well. Was he injured before or after signing?

Poe at 1 year, 8M would have been interesting.

Paea's knee issues were well known

 

[jterrell]

The OP answered his own question in his first line.

Giants were FA kings in 2016... and look at their record now?

You pay big money and seldom get the reward for that. Its why SJones has decided to only grab lower tier bargains and hope for the best.
Dallas currently has a couple FAs playing well. Brice Butler and Jonathon Cooper but the focus is on 3 guys they cut that cost them nearly nothing... even though those players were merely signed so they could draft and develop players.
Carroll isn't here because he likely had a suspension coming and was being outplayed by Lewis.
Moore isn't here because 5 tackles and no sacks want enough to warrant keeping over younger guys with more upside.

Xavier Woods, Jourdan Lewis ... those are real, long-term answers. FA provides quick fixes and often fools gold.

Its tough to draft your own, pay them what they require and also spend in FA.
So teams tend to do one or the other well.

FA teams tends to have those 2-3 year windows.

 

[Sydla]

Again, the Giants model of dropping $200MM in one offseason in FA isn't exactly what people are talking about here.

Teams that win actually do both well - they draft well and they strategically use FA to improve themselves. They draft well to build a core and then use FA to fill immediate holes.

The Packers are always used as this model of just draft, never sign FAs.

But that's not entirely true. In 2014, they signed Julius Peppers, for example. They wanted another edge player and felt they were ready to win then and FA was the way to go. In the three seasons he was there, they made two NFC Title games. The Packers built their core through the draft and then strategically found a couple of FAs that could fill a hole and put them over the top.

That's not what the Cowboys are doing here. They are basically saying we are going all in on the draft and will basically eschew FA as a way to also improve, instead playing the lottery and hoping our cheap, day 7 FAs buck the trend and end up being good instead of the dogs they likely are.

All I am saying is they have to change their thinking a bit at this point and look to FA this offseason as a way to get better on defense sooner while still drafting the young core going forward.

 

[diefree666]

The OP answered his own question in his first line.

Giants were FA kings in 2016... and look at their record now?

You pay big money and seldom get the reward for that. Its why SJones has decided to only grab lower tier bargains and hope for the best.
Dallas currently has a couple FAs playing well. Brice Butler and Jonathon Cooper but the focus is on 3 guys they cut that cost them nearly nothing... even though those players were merely signed so they could draft and develop players.
Carroll isn't here because he likely had a suspension coming and was being outplayed by Lewis.
Moore isn't here because 5 tackles and no sacks want enough to warrant keeping over younger guys with more upside.

Xavier Woods, Jourdan Lewis ... those are real, long-term answers. FA provides quick fixes and often fools gold.

Its tough to draft your own, pay them what they require and also spend in FA.
So teams tend to do one or the other well.

FA teams tends to have those 2-3 year windows.

Patriots have been judicious in use of FA's right?

And they have MORE LOMBARDI'S in the past 15 years then we HAVE PLAYOFF WINS.

 

[jterrell]

I'll take 2 mid-tiered guys like a Poe or Logan at the 1 tech and then a guy like Hyde who would have solidified the safety position.

This team is much better with those signings instead of the cheap methods they took this offseason.

And frankly, I don't think they will change. They are married to this slow and steady approach.

The team has developed a smart approach that allows them to gain significant supplemental draft picks every other year and avoid overspending in free agency.

Last year was a bite the bullet year and let FAs walk while not signing guys. They draft as well as anyone and are giving the scouts and personnel more bullets to use in the draft now.

This is a young, ascending team. The QB is a baby, the DL has good about 5 minutes and all around the team will trend upward as the season wears on and these young guys gain experience.

 

[Stash]

The OP answered his own question in his first line.

Giants were FA kings in 2016... and look at their record now?

You pay big money and seldom get the reward for that. Its why SJones has decided to only grab lower tier bargains and hope for the best.
Dallas currently has a couple FAs playing well. Brice Butler and Jonathon Cooper but the focus is on 3 guys they cut that cost them nearly nothing... even though those players were merely signed so they could draft and develop players.
Carroll isn't here because he likely had a suspension coming and was being outplayed by Lewis.
Moore isn't here because 5 tackles and no sacks want enough to warrant keeping over younger guys with more upside.

Xavier Woods, Jourdan Lewis ... those are real, long-term answers. FA provides quick fixes and often fools gold.

Its tough to draft your own, pay them what they require and also spend in FA.
So teams tend to do one or the other well.

FA teams tends to have those 2-3 year windows.

There's an awful lot of inaccurate in this post.

 

[Stash]

The team has developed a smart approach that allows them to gain significant supplemental draft picks every other year and avoid overspending in free agency.

Last year was a bite the bullet year and let FAs walk while not signing guys. They draft as well as anyone and are giving the scouts and personnel more bullets to use in the draft now.

This is a young, ascending team. The QB is a baby, the DL has good about 5 minutes and all around the team will trend upward as the season wears on and these young guys gain experience.

They did sign guys.

 

[jterrell]

Patriots have been judicious in use of FA's right?

And they have MORE LOMBARDI'S in the past 15 years then we HAVE PLAYOFF WINS.

Pats have largely benefited from having the best (defensive) coach and QB in the league.
And from having guys sign cheaply with them in Free Agency as expected champs.
The Pats are one of the cheapest teams in the league. Pretty much every player there is a bargain or is gone.

So what free agents were the key players for the Pats last year?

 

[Sydla]

The team has developed a smart approach that allows them to gain significant supplemental draft picks every other year and avoid overspending in free agency.

Last year was a bite the bullet year and let FAs walk while not signing guys. They draft as well as anyone and are giving the scouts and personnel more bullets to use in the draft now.

This is a young, ascending team. The QB is a baby, the DL has good about 5 minutes and all around the team will trend upward as the season wears on and these young guys gain experience.

And the fact you have a young QB but a very good team (at least offensively) is precisely the reason why adding a few mid-level FAs would make sense. Prescott is on a cheap deal which gives you the flexibility so sign a couple of mid-level FAs that will not hinder your ability to sign Prescott long term a few years down the road.

This supplemental picks angle being played now is killing me. Again, are people really arguing that they'd rather have a 4th or 5th round supplemental pick than say, a real 1 tech like a Poe or Logan who are only one year deals and wouldn't hinder us financially beyond this season?

Come on.

 

[Sydla]

Pats have largely benefited from having the best (defensive) coach and QB in the league.
And from having guys sign cheaply with them in Free Agency as expected champs.
The Pats are one of the cheapest teams in the league. Pretty much every player there is a bargain or is gone.

So what free agents were the key players for the Pats last year?

Pats are an oddity that they also use trades more than most teams. But they have no problem bringing in players from outside the organization. They traded for Bennett who was a big part of their team last year, especially when Gronk went down.

In 2015, they signed Jabaal Sheard who was one of their better edge players in 2015 and had 5 sacks and played well in 2016, their SB year.

These are precisely the moves the Cowboys should be making. Forget the high priced, over paid elite FAs. Find those mid-level guys like a Sheard that aren't cap stifling but solid enough that they fill a hole and improve your team while you can still focus on building a core through the draft.

That's all I am asking for and hope they do this coming offseason with a bit more cap space.

 

[CowboyRoy]

I realize that Stephen Jones likes to build thru the draft (which team doesn't) but that's not being totally realistic. With Moore cut - all three of Dallas FA signings are no longer on team. That won't cut-it in this era. The Giants leaned heavily on FA signing in '16 and Eagles made big upgrades with their '17 FA signings. If Dallas wants to stay competitive they need to make big improvements in their talent evaluations of FA and not be so gun shy from past failures.

And who can forget the posters claiming these guys would be quality and help turnaround the defense.

We have more money now so I would expect them to use it on the defense.

 

[Stash]

And the fact you have a young QB but a very good team (at least offensively) is precisely the reason why adding a few mid-level FAs would make sense. Prescott is on a cheap deal which gives you the flexibility so sign a couple of mid-level FAs that will not hinder your ability to sign Prescott long term a few years down the road.

This supplemental picks angle being played now is killing me. Again, are people really arguing that they'd rather have a 4th or 5th round supplemental pick than say, a real 1 tech like a Poe or Logan who are only one year deals and wouldn't hinder us financially beyond this season?

Come on.

Anybody want to talk about the 2019 6thr rounder they'll now lose to the Bengals as further result of the Nolan Carroll mistake? Since we're focused on these late round picks and all...

 

[Stash]

And who can forget the posters claiming these guys would be quality and help turnaround the defense.

We have more money now so I would expect them to use it on the defense.

I'll cop to being fooled on several of them.

I drank the Kool-Aid on Moore and Paea being nice adds, and Heath stepping in at safety. None of which turned out to be true.

In my defense, I never though Carroll was a good signing, but gave benefit of the doubt that they saw something's I didn't.

So that's one for me!

 

[jterrell]

Pats are an oddity that they also use trades more than most teams. But they have no problem bringing in players from outside the organization. They traded for Bennett who was a big part of their team last year, especially when Gronk went down.

In 2015, they signed Jabaal Sheard who was one of their better edge players in 2015 and had 5 sacks and played well in 2016, their SB year.

These are precisely the moves the Cowboys should be making. Forget the high priced, over paid elite FAs. Find those mid-level guys like a Sheard that aren't cap stifling but solid enough that they fill a hole and improve your team while you can still focus on building a core through the draft.

That's all I am asking for and hope they do this coming offseason with a bit more cap space.

The Sheard FA contract is what Dallas does. It was a 2 year 11 mil deal. Once he earned a raise he was gone.
Bennett was drafted here, lol. We don't want him back. His attitude drove his price wayyyy down. Pats used him in a rent a season mode for a 4th round pick and let him walk.

Pats take lots of risks on guys and some work out and others do not. But they don't pay big money.

And yes next off-season is the every other off-season where Dallas goes out and does a net add in FA.

Simply put, Dallas is in line to receive two comp picks in 2018. Since the contracts of the players signed are not comparable to the contracts of those FAs lost then Dallas should receive compensation for their two highest FA losses at this point. Which would be Leary who got close to $9M per season and Church who got $6.5M per season. That should equate to Dallas receiving a 4th and a 5th round comp pick in 2018 but those could change with each FA addition or loss we have from here on.

So consider that if Dallas signed any additional FA, then they'd have been giving up a 5th round comp pick as well.

 

[GhostOfPelluer]

You get what you pay for

Except in FA you get less than you pay for

 

[jterrell]

And the fact you have a young QB but a very good team (at least offensively) is precisely the reason why adding a few mid-level FAs would make sense. Prescott is on a cheap deal which gives you the flexibility so sign a couple of mid-level FAs that will not hinder your ability to sign Prescott long term a few years down the road.

This supplemental picks angle being played now is killing me. Again, are people really arguing that they'd rather have a 4th or 5th round supplemental pick than say, a real 1 tech like a Poe or Logan who are only one year deals and wouldn't hinder us financially beyond this season?

Come on.

Yes, I am saying exactly that. Because it's common sense.
This team wasn't a Super Bowl favorite. Facing Zeke suspension, turnover at DB, harder schedule.
You don't panic and pretend this is a 1 year window.
Paying Poe 8mil plus a 4th round pick for 1 year? NO!

 

[Sydla]

The Sheard FA contract is what Dallas does. It was a 2 year 11 mil deal. Once he earned a raise he was gone.
Bennett was drafted here, lol. We don't want him back. His attitude drove his price wayyyy down. Pats used him in a rent a season mode for a 4th round pick and let him walk.

Pats take lots of risks on guys and some work out and others do not. But they don't pay big money.

And yes next off-season is the every other off-season where Dallas goes out and does a net add in FA.

Simply put, Dallas is in line to receive two comp picks in 2018. Since the contracts of the players signed are not comparable to the contracts of those FAs lost then Dallas should receive compensation for their two highest FA losses at this point. Which would be Leary who got close to $9M per season and Church who got $6.5M per season. That should equate to Dallas receiving a 4th and a 5th round comp pick in 2018 but those could change with each FA addition or loss we have from here on.

So consider that if Dallas signed any additional FA, then they'd have been giving up a 5th round comp pick as well.

Sheard is not what the Cowboys do unles you are going to try to convince me that Carroll and Moore are comparable players to a Sheard. We haven't signed anyone of his caliber. People were actually lobbying for him to be signed in 2015. He had 24 sacks in four years with the Browns.

You literally are proving my point. Bennett was a short term rental. Not a big ticket FA that will hurt the cap down the road. The fact we wouldn't want him or we drafted him is besides the point. It's an example of a quality franchise not eschewing players from outside the organization to improve their team, instead, solely focusing on the draft as the way to improve. Find those mid-level players that help the team and aren't cap anchors 4 years from now.

Yeah, I'd gladly trade an extra 4th or 5th round comp pick for a guy like Bennie Logan or Micah Hyde. Anyone saying they'd rather have a 5th round comp pick instead of a productive player who could help this team now really isn't looking at this objectively.

 

[Sydla]

Yes, I am saying exactly that. Because it's common sense.
This team wasn't a Super Bowl favorite. Facing Zeke suspension, turnover at DB, harder schedule.
You don't panic and pretend this is a 1 year window.
Paying Poe 8mil plus a 4th round pick for 1 year? NO!

This team was 13-3. This new bizarre angle that they weren't or shouldn't have been expected to be a SB contender a year after going 13-3 is just more BS from the excuse everything the FO does crowd.

So just so I get this straight. Mid to lower round comp picks are more important than actual players that could help you now and in the near future. And that despite coming off a 13-3 season, the expectation this season was and should have been that this team wasn't a real SB contender and in fact, we should have looked at them as a rebuilding team.

LOL. I give up.