Bradie James - Getting Better?

[Stautner]

Key phrase: "hand in the dirt"

If his hand is in the dirt, we're most likely in a nickel package. I can't recall a single play where he lined up on the LOS with his hand in the dirt and it wasn't a nickel package (other than the Detroit game).

Ohhh - it's now MOST LIKELY ....... before it was ALWAYS .........

And you are talking about last year in Parcells more passive defense - and even then you are NOW admitting that it isn't ONLY nicle situations.

This is Phillips more agressive defense where the OLB's are supposed to do more attackig and have fewer coverage responsibilities

It is part of what OLBs do. But when Carp did it in the game he was doing it as a nickel DE.

Oh, now it's part of what LB's do, when before you were saying it was ONLY in nickle situations .........

This doesn't make sense. You're misreading what I said. The nickel DE and the 3-4 OLB are different positions. Yes, the OLB has multiple responsibilities, but what does that have to do with the two being different positions?

Well, when you consistently claim (until now - since your tune is changing) that the OLB ONLY plays at the LOS with his hand down in nickle situations, well, there is a point ....... keep backpeddling.

This is nonsensical. You're not making any sense whatsoever here.

Yeah, I know ...... when OLB's play multiple roles with multiple responsibilites they are no longer LB's, but when other positions do the same they are still playing the same position they always have ......

And I don't make sense?

When a DE drops into coverage in a zone blitz, he's still a DE. When an ILB plays nickel DE, he's a nickel DE. When a 3-4 DE plays nickel DE, he's a nickel DE. When a 3-4 DE plays nickel DE, he is not an OLB.

I assume you meant when an OLB plays nickle ........

Neverthless you are telling me that when the OLB rushes the QB from the LOS in a nickle package he is a DE, but when he does exactly the same thing whn not in a nickle package he is an OLB? Is that what you are saying?

No, I didn't say that this is part of the role of the OLB.

HERE'S WHAT I SAID: I merely said that the OLB's have multiple roles and rush the QB from different spots and different angles, including rushing from the line of scrimmage. And not just in nickle situations.

HERE'S WHAT YOU SAID: No, I totally understand that this is what linebackers do. And I agree.


Hell, in fact, you stated in your last post the same thing. You said - AGAIN - that's what LB's do, just that in this particular case Carp was doing it in a nickle package.



Your tune is changing ........

 

[Stautner]

When someone holds the position that playing nickel DE means that the person is an OLB, it's not likely that they'll be easily reasoned with. This is true.

Actually this is a falsehood.

What I have said is that playing OLB means playing with your hand down on the line of scrimmage and rushing the QB from that spot at times.

And I've clearly said it that way over and over.

And I suspect you know this.


But, again - your MO is to twist things to make it seem like you have a point.

 

[theogt]

Ohhh - it's now MOST LIKELY ....... before it was ALWAYS .........

And you are talking about last year in Parcells more passive defense - and even then you are NOW admitting that it isn't ONLY nicle situations.

This is Phillips more agressive defense where the OLB's are supposed to do more attackig and have fewer coverage responsibilities

The terms "most likely" and "always" aren't mutually exclusive. One can include the other. I can't remember a single time where Ware played a 3 point stance and we weren't in nickel defense. He could play that position in a 4-3 defense. But I can't imagine any possibility of him doing it in a 3-4 defense. And if he did do it in a 3-4 defense he would not be an OLB.

Oh, now it's part of what LB's do, when before you were saying it was ONLY in nickle situations .........

No, I didn't say it was in only nickel situations. They rush from the LOS quite a bit. They just don't do it as an OLB in the 3-point stance. If they're in the 3-point stance it's either a 4-3 or a nickel package.

Well, when you consistently claim (until now - since your tune is changing) that the OLB ONLY plays at the LOS with his hand down in nickle situations, well, there is a point ....... keep backpeddling.

My tune hasn't changed at all. I've always claimed that sometimes it's the OLB that plays the nickel DE positions. Somtimes it's the 3-4 DE that plays that position. And sometimes it's a 3-4 ILB that plays that position.

However, playing the nickel DE position doesn't not in and of itself make someone a 3-4 OLB.

Yeah, I know ...... when OLB's play multiple roles with multiple responsibilites they are no longer LB's, but when other positions do the same they are still playing the same position they always have ......

And I don't make sense?

You're confused.

I assume you meant when an OLB plays nickle ........

Neverthless you are telling me that when the OLB rushes the QB from the LOS in a nickle package he is a DE, but when he does exactly the same thing whn not in a nickle package he is an OLB? Is that what you are saying?

When he rushes from the LOS with his hand in the dirt (i.e., a 3-point stance) he is playing DE in either a nickel or a 4-3.

HERE'S WHAT I SAID: I merely said that the OLB's have multiple roles and rush the QB from different spots and different angles, including rushing from the line of scrimmage. And not just in nickle situations.

HERE'S WHAT YOU SAID: No, I totally understand that this is what linebackers do. And I agree.


Hell, in fact, you stated in your last post the same thing. You said - AGAIN - that's what LB's do, just that in this particular case Carp was doing it in a nickle package.

Yes, I agree that OLBs rush from different spots and different angles, including rushing from the LOS. Of course they do that. Where did I say otherwise?

Actually this is a falsehood.

What I have said is that playing OLB means playing with your hand down on the line of scrimmage and rushing the QB from that spot at times.

And I've clearly said it that way over and over.

And I suspect you know this.


But, again - your MO is to twist things to make it seem like you have a point.

Yes, I agree that sometimes 3-4 OLBs play nickel DE. I've been telling you that this entire time. However, they don't play nickel DE because they're 3-4 OLBs. They play nickel DE because of their body type. There are players that are not 3-4 OLBs that have the body type to play nickel DE. Jason Hatcher is one example. He's a 3-4 DE, not a 3-4 OLB. He plays nickel DE.

Let me boil this down.

Some 3-4 OLBs are nickel DEs.

Some 3-4 DEs are nickel DEs.

Therefore, not all nickel DEs are 3-4 OLBs.

Therefore, being a nickel DE does not make someone an OLB.

 

[theogt]

Mike Vrabel?

Another great example of an ILB that also plays nickel DE at times.

 

[Stautner]

The terms "most likely" and "always" aren't mutually exclusive. One can include the other. I can't remember a single time where Ware played a 3 point stance and we weren't in nickel defense. He could play that position in a 4-3 defense. But I can't imagine any possibility of him doing it in a 3-4 defense. And if he did do it in a 3-4 defense he would not be an OLB.

No, I didn't say it was in only nickel situations. They rush from the LOS quite a bit. They just don't do it as an OLB in the 3-point stance. If they're in the 3-point stance it's either a 4-3 or a nickel package.

My tune hasn't changed at all. I've always claimed that sometimes it's the OLB that plays the nickel DE positions. Somtimes it's the 3-4 DE that plays that position. And sometimes it's a 3-4 ILB that plays that position.

However, playing the nickel DE position doesn't not in and of itself make someone a 3-4 OLB.

You're confused.

When he rushes from the LOS with his hand in the dirt (i.e., a 3-point stance) he is playing DE in either a nickel or a 4-3.

Yes, I agree that OLBs rush from different spots and different angles, including rushing from the LOS. Of course they do that. Where did I say otherwise?

Yes, I agree that sometimes 3-4 OLBs play nickel DE. I've been telling you that this entire time. However, they don't play nickel DE because they're 3-4 OLBs. They play nickel DE because of their body type. There are players that are not 3-4 OLBs that have the body type to play nickel DE. Jason Hatcher is one example. He's a 3-4 DE, not a 3-4 OLB. He plays nickel DE.

Let me boil this down.

Some 3-4 OLBs are nickel DEs.

Some 3-4 DEs are nickel DEs.

Not all nickel DEs are 3-4 OLBs.

Therefore, being a nickel DE does not make someone an OLB.

This summs it up - ALWAYS, and MOST LIKELY are the same thing .......right?

So, let me get this straight - when you said that when the OLB rushes from the line of scrimmage he is ALWAYS doing it in nickle situations, and then later when you said that you understand that he does it in different situations, then when you later said you remembered a time when Ware did it in non-nickle situations ..........

YOU WERE SAYING THE SAME THING EACH TIME?

You just proved to what degree you are willing to pull BS out of your backside to avoid accepting there may be a chink in your armour.

NOW - HERE IS SOMETHING YOU JUST WROTE:

However, playing the nickel DE position doesn't not in and of itself make someone a 3-4 OLB.

I'm going to challenge you to show me where I said that .......

In fact - I will refer you to my last post (one I wa posting while you were responding) - that is what I have said over and over, yet you, as usual, are twisting words for your own puposes.

 

[theogt]

This summs it up - ALWAYS, and MOST LIKELY are the same thing .......right?

No, they're not the same thing. They're just not mutually exclusive.

So, let me get this straight - when you said that when the OLB rushes from the line of scrimmage he is ALWAYS doing it in nickle situations, and then later when you said that you understand that he does it in different situations, then when you later said you remembered a time when Ware did it in non-nickle situations ..........

YOU WERE SAYING THE SAME THING EACH TIME?

I never said that the OLB only rushes from the LOS in a nickel situation.

NOW - HERE IS SOMETHING YOU JUST WROTE:

However, playing the nickel DE position doesn't not in and of itself make someone a 3-4 OLB.

I'm going to challenge you to show me where I said that .......

In fact - I will refer you to my last post (one I wa posting while you were responding) - that is what I have said over and over, yet you, as usual, are twisting words for your own puposes.

It's what this whole conversation been about. Here's a basic summary of the thread:

Stautner: Carpenter rushed from the outside.
theogt: Carpenter did not play OLB.
Stautner: Rushing from the LOS with your hand in the ground makes him an OLB.
theogt: Your'e ********.

 

[Stautner]

No, they're not the same thing. They're just not mutually exclusive.

I never said that the OLB only rushes from the LOS in a nickel situation.

It's what this whole conversation been about. Here's a basic summary of the thread:

Stautner: Carpenter rushed from the outside.
theogt: Carpenter did not play OLB.
Stautner: Rushing from the LOS with your hand in the ground makes him an OLB.
theogt: Your'e ********.

This is your MO - when you lose you start a diversion and trust that the readers are to stupid to catch it or just don't want to go back and read the whole thing.

SHOW ME where I said that rushing from the LOS with his hand on the ground makes him and OLB.


I've shown your quotes - you show me mine now.



The fact is that what I said and have been saying is that when the OLB rushes from the LOS with his hand down he is just fulfilling one of the responsibilites of an OLB in the 3-4 defense, especially in Phillip's agressive 3-4.



HERE ARE EXAMPLES OF MY QUOTES:


The flexibility of the OLB to move around and attack from different spots in different ways is what makes the position hard to defend - and that's the role Shawn Merriman played and Ware will play

The fact is that moving up and playing like a 4-3 DE in some situations is what an OLB does in a 3-4. Ware has done it A LOT for 2 years now, and will probably do more of it this year in our new, more agressive scheme.

Yes, what Carp was doing is a DE like role. but, again, that's just part of the role of an OLB in a 3-4 defense.

The OLBers are the primary pass rushers in the 3-4, Ware can move down and rush the QB at any time - the idea, especially now that we have Phillips, is to bring pressure consistently, not just on passing downs.

THESE ALL SHOW THAT I AM AND HAVE BEEN SAYING THAT RUSHING FROM THE LOS (HAND DOWN OR NOT) IS MERELY A FUNCTION OF BEING A 3-4 OLB IN THIS SCHEME ............



Now, you show me where I said that being a nickle DE means a guy is an OLB ........ either that or admit you are twisting words for your own purposes.

 

[theogt]

This is your MO - when you lose you start a diversion and trust that the readers are to stupid to catch it or just don't want to go back and read the whole thing.

SHOW ME where I said that rushing from the LOS with his hand on the ground makes him and OLB.


I've shown your quotes - you show me mine now.

Your entire argument has been that Carpenter played OLB because he rushed from the nickel DE spot. Here's a pretty close direct statement:

The OLB moves up into a pass rushing spot starting with his hand on the ground in certain situations. That's the same thing Ware does .... neither of those guys are backing up Spears or Canty.

The fact is that what I said and have been saying is that when the OLB rushes from the LOS with his hand down he is just fulfilling one of the responsibilites of an OLB in the 3-4 defense, especially in Phillip's agressive 3-4.

No, he's not. He's not fulfilling one of the responsibilities of an OLB. It's not the OLB's responsibility to rush the passer from the LOS with his hand in the dirt. It's the nickel DE's responsibility. If he's rushing from the LOS with his hand in the dirt he is not an OLB.

HERE ARE EXAMPLES OF MY QUOTES:


The flexibility of the OLB to move around and attack from different spots in different ways is what makes the position hard to defend - and that's the role Shawn Merriman played and Ware will play

The fact is that moving up and playing like a 4-3 DE in some situations is what an OLB does in a 3-4. Ware has done it A LOT for 2 years now, and will probably do more of it this year in our new, more agressive scheme.

I've never disagreed with this. Our 3-4 OLBs do play nickel DE. So do our 3-4 DEs. And so do our 3-4 ILBs.

Yes, what Carp was doing is a DE like role. but, again, that's just part of the role of an OLB in a 3-4 defense.

No, it is absolutely not part of the role of an OLB in a 3-4 defense. Sometimes an OLB plays that role, but it is not the responsibility of the 3-4 OLB.

It is entirely possible for someone to be a 3-4 OLB and never play nickel DE. It is also entirely possible for someone to be a nickel DE and never play 3-4 OLB.

In fact, 4-3 teams play nickel defense and never have a 3-4 OLB (or a 4-3 OLB for that matter) play nickel DE. The position is entirely exclusive from 3-4 OLB. Simply because a 3-4 OLB sometimes plays the position doesn't mean it's the responsibility of the 3-4 OLB position.

The OLBers are the primary pass rushers in the 3-4, Ware can move down and rush the QB at any time - the idea, especially now that we have Phillips, is to bring pressure consistently, not just on passing downs.

THESE ALL SHOW THAT I AM AND HAVE BEEN SAYING THAT RUSHING FROM THE LOS (HAND DOWN OR NOT) IS MERELY A FUNCTION OF BEING A 3-4 OLB IN THIS SCHEME ............

Yes, Ware can do it. He does it quite a bit. But when his hand is down he is not an OLB.

Now, you show me where I said that being a nickle DE means a guy is an OLB ........ either that or admit you are twisting words for your own purposes.

Dude, it's what this entire conversation has been about. If you're not claiming that, then we can move on.

 

[theogt]

Answer this question, please, Stautner:

If a player plays nickel DE, is that player a 3-4 OLB?

 

[Stautner]

Your entire argument has been that Carpenter played OLB because he rushed from the nickel DE spot. Here's a pretty close direct statement:

Yes, I said that OLB's move in to rush the QB from the LOS - which is NOT THE SAME as saying that players who rush from the LOS have to be OLB's.

Yet that is what you are claiming.

Your logic is VERY, VERY weak here.

No, he's not. He's not fulfilling one of the responsibilities of an OLB. It's not the OLB's responsibility to rush the passer from the LOS with his hand in the dirt. It's the nickel DE's responsibility. If he's rushing from the LOS with his hand in the dirt he is not an OLB.

Again, the OLB can rush the QB, from the LOS, with his hand in the dirt, on ANY down - not just nickle situations.

Showing multiple looks in a variety of situations is what OLB's do in Phillips defense.

In fact - you even backpeddled and admitted that a few posts ago, and are now backpeddling and denying it again.

I've never disagreed with this. Our 3-4 OLBs do play nickel DE. So do our 3-4 DEs. And so do our 3-4 ILBs.

No, it is absolutely not part of the role of an OLB in a 3-4 defense. Sometimes an OLB plays that role, but it is not the responsibility of the 3-4 OLB.

It is entirely possible for someone to be a 3-4 OLB and never play nickel DE. It is also entirely possible for someone to be a nickel DE and never play 3-4 OLB.

Yes and yes - as is another of your MO's you are trying to win points by arguing something not in dispute.

Another of your diversions.

In fact, 4-3 teams play nickel defense and never have a 3-4 OLB (or a 4-3 OLB for that matter) play nickel DE. The position is entirely exclusive from 3-4 OLB. Simply because a 3-4 OLB sometimes plays the position doesn't mean it's the responsibility of the 3-4 OLB position.

You are arguing about what 3-4 LB's do by giving the example of what 4-3 defenses do?

Wow - you are getting desperate.

Yes, Ware can do it. He does it quite a bit. But when his hand is down he is not an OLB.

Since this was a response to my quote about Ware rushing from the LOS with his hand down AT ANY TIME AND NT JUST ON PASSING DOWNS, then apparently you are AGAIN backpeddling and saying that he doesn't only do it in nickle situations.

You flip flop so much you can't know if you are up or down.

Dude, it's what this entire conversation has been about. If you're not claiming that, then we can move on.

I've never claimed that - never said anything close.

Saying a 3-4 OLB is required to rush the QB from the LOS with his hands down at times IS NOT THE SAME AS saying a linemen who rushes the QB with his hand on the ground has to be an OLB.

For you to interperet it that way - despite the fact that I made my position clear over and over again - is ridiculous.


But then again, I don't think that is how you interpereted it - this intereperetation never came up early on in this discussion.

It's just another of your famous diversions.

 

[fortdick]

Answer this question, please, Stautner:

If a player plays nickel DE, is that player a 3-4 OLB?

I can;t believe this is still going on.

Let me respond to your question with another.

If Romo is under center, he is a QB. If Jones lines up behind him, he is a tailback. If Romo goes in motion and they direct snap to Jones, does that make Jones a QB?

In essence, you both are saying the same thing, however, Stautner is talking players, and you are talking formations. Bringing Roy up to the LOS does not make him a DT.

Carp wears #54. That is a linebackers number, not a lineman's.

 

[theogt]

Stautner, why have you been arguing with me? All I said originally was that Carpenter didn't play OLB. If you're not claiming he played OLB and you're not claiming a nickel DE is an OLB, why are you arguing?

 

[theogt]

I can;t believe this is still going on.

Let me respond to your question with another.

If Romo is under center, he is a QB. If Jones lines up behind him, he is a tailback. If Romo goes in motion and they direct snap to Jones, does that make Jones a QB?

In essence, you both are saying the same thing, however, Stautner is talking players, and you are talking formations. Bringing Roy up to the LOS does not make him a DT.

Carp wears #54. That is a linebackers number, not a lineman's.

Your analogies aren't very good. In that play, it's a trick play with a direct snap to the RB. It's simply not the same situation. The RB doesn't become the QB.

If Julius lined up under center and took the snap, he'd be a QB. I'm pretty sure it'd also be a penalty because he can't play that position wearing the number 21.

 

[Stautner]

I can;t believe this is still going on.

Let me respond to your question with another.

If Romo is under center, he is a QB. If Jones lines up behind him, he is a tailback. If Romo goes in motion and they direct snap to Jones, does that make Jones a QB?

In essence, you both are saying the same thing, however, Stautner is talking players, and you are talking formations. Bringing Roy up to the LOS does not make him a DT.

Carp wears #54. That is a linebackers number, not a lineman's.

You are right - this shouldn't still be going on.

It's all the damn flip flopping that frustrates me, but I should just let it go.

And it's the blatently false claims that when I say OLB's sometimes rush from the LOS that I am really saying that when a nickle DE rushes from the LOS he is an OLB.

But I should let that go too.

Which I will, because I have to make a trip out of town pretty quickly.


But I like the way you kind of described this - perhaps it will help him to understand that what I am saying is that OLB's don't just line up in one formation, and that each different formation and look doesn't constitute him playing a different position. Rather it's just one of the demands of the position he plays.

 

[superpunk]

Looks like it was all just a big misunderstanding. Good to know.

:grouphug:

 

[theogt]

Dude, show me once where I've flip-flopped. ONE TIME!

 

[theogt]

Looks like it was all just a big misunderstanding. Good to know.

:grouphug:

Well, if the guy could write in coherent English, it wouldn't be a problem. It's as if his thoughts are so jumbled in his head that he can't get them out properly in writing. He really just needs to slow down and think things through.

 

[Stautner]

Your analogies aren't very good. In that play, it's a trick play with a direct snap to the RB. It's simply not the same situation. The RB doesn't become the QB.

If Julius lined up under center and took the snap, he'd be a QB. I'm pretty sure it'd also be a penalty because he can't play that position wearing the number 21.

So, if we ran that play say..... 8-10 times a game would that matter. Once it became more common and not just a rare trick play would that make Julius a QB?

It's still moving people into different formations. Just because it occurs less frequently than with Ware moving to the LOS doesn't change that.

 

[theogt]

So, if we ran that play say..... 8-10 times a game would that matter. Once it became more common and not just a rare trick play would that make Julius a QB?

It's still moving people into different formations. Just because it occurs less frequently than with Ware moving to the LOS doesn't change that.

The trick/common distinction isn't meaningful, so there's no need to latch onto that. If Julius is lined up as QB and plays the QB position, he's a QB.

 

[Stautner]

Well, if the guy could write in coherent English, it wouldn't be a problem. It's as if his thoughts are so jumbled in his head that he can't get them out properly in writing. He really just needs to slow down and think things through.

See, now you are trying to win points by suggesting that Superpunk was on board with you.

You are the one twisting words and flip flopping your position - you have no legs to stand on in this regard.