BTB: Cowboys 2013 Draft Board Leaked... All Seven Rounds (Link Post #21) *Merge*

Risen Star

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Ah, it's the old unless you've seen other teams boards, you don't know defense.

Of course you could say the same thing for those that say it wasn't a reach too...but I'll play along.

Let's put it this way. In every draft resource available to an informed fan, Travis Frederick was definitely, not maybe, a reach in the 1st round. And this is coming from a guy who actually mentioned his name pre-draft in support of the player.

I just call a spade a spade. No spin. Ever. It is what it is. They bypassed a superior talent on their board to take a trade that wasn't good value because they were targeting need. The GM admitted as much after the fact. Frederick was "the last of the mohicans". We had to have him.
 

Risen Star

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And to not have Larry Warford on their board at all kind of points out just how bad we are at evaluating the position. He'd walk into Dallas the best interior offensive lineman on the roster.

I'm hoping that was just inaccurate and he was there. If not, wow. Dinner for Schmucks.
 

TheRomoSexual

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Risen Star;5093398 said:
And to not have Larry Warford on their board at all kind of points out just how bad we are at evaluating the position. He'd walk into Dallas the best interior offensive lineman on the roster.

I'm hoping that was just inaccurate and he was there. If not, wow. Dinner for Schmucks.

Sounds like someone is upset that his tub-o-lard mancrush turned out to be nothing more than a third round prospect.
 

jobberone

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Who says you take the BPA irregardless of need? Who says you take the BPA irregardless of how he fits your scheme? Players are assigned grades subjectively using some objective data. They then develop their board. You put players you may not want on the board because while you may not covet them other teams may. So in any trade you have to account for the value of the player even though you may not be interested in drafting him.

Some here act as if a basic law was violated instead of a team saying sure he's talented but his talents aren't going to be as evident in our scheme. There's no one we want left that fits this round that we like so let's drop down and get someone who is roughly rated near that draft slot who fits our needs and schemes.

The value to the Dallas Cowboys with Fred and eventually Williams is much greater than the value of one player in this case a DL whose talents didn't match our needs.

You are looking to get a starter with a first round pick. Fred was the highest ranked player that fit our needs and that slot. So yeah they drafted for need but Fred wasn't a huge reach.

If Fred and Williams are meh or worse and Floyd is not then yeah you may have made the wrong decision. Keep in mind though that if Floyd is very successful with another team it may be partly because he fits their scheme and is being asked to do things that fit his talents and minimize his weaknesses.

The draft is not based on the laws of physics. You're looking for the best player at your spot who can help your team the most.
 

Risen Star

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TheRomoSexual;5093399 said:
Sounds like someone is upset that his tub-o-lard mancrush turned out to be nothing more than a third round prospect.

Not really. I don't get in love with players. To put it in your terms I'm player abstinent.

I sure would like him here. Since he's better than any G on our roster by a country mile and he'll prove it over the course of his career. But of course by that time, we shouldn't look back and live in the past.

Lather, rinse, repeat. Go Cowboys!
 

speedkilz88

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I don't think Warford fit Callahan's scheme. He's implementing more and more ZBS stuff and he seems to like bigger guys with some agility and quickness instead of the typical undersized ZBS guys. Warford just doesn't quite fit since neither quickness or agility is a part of his game. And although Frederick also had movement questions he did quite well in the drills for agility.


6. LARRY WARFORD, Kentucky (6-3, 329, 5.59, 2-3) - Three-year starter at RG. "He's a road grader," one scout said. "Great, big, massive guy. He blocked the big guy (John Jenkins) from Georgia to death. A three-technique is not going to knock him back. His problem is once he gets in space. He doesn't have a lot of lateral quickness." Will become the Wildcats' first O-lineman drafted since G Todd Perry and T Chuck Bradley in 1993. "He does not test well, but he can anchor the pocket," another scout said. "He's got the bulk and the girth to get his hands on people, sit his weight down and control people in the pass rush. Little bit sloppy as a run blocker. Played on a real bad team. He's a potential starter early." From Richmond, Ky. "His feet are so slow," a third scout said. "That bugs me."

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/draft19g-rt9i5uh-203726121.html
 

Risen Star

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speedkilz88;5093422 said:
I don't think Warford fit Callahan's scheme. He's implementing more and more ZBS stuff and he seems to like bigger guys with some agility and quickness instead of the typical undersized ZBS guys. Warford just doesn't quite fit since neither quickness or agility is a part of his game. And although Frederick also had movement questions he did quite well in the drills for agility.




http://www.jsonline.com/sports/draft19g-rt9i5uh-203726121.html

The Frederick pick makes this less of an issue. Or at least it should. On a team desperate for OL who can play, maybe you fit your scheme to the talent you can acquire and not the other way around.

Was Chance Warmack also a don't touch? Maybe you're over thinking things and/or giving your OL coach a little too much stroke in personnel decisions.
 

speedkilz88

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Risen Star;5093431 said:
The Frederick pick makes this less of an issue. Or at least it should. On a team desperate for OL who can play, maybe you fit your scheme to the talent you can acquire and not the other way around.

Was Chance Warmack also a don't touch? Maybe you're over thinking things and/or giving your OL coach a little too much stroke in personnel decisions.
No, as I said Frederick actually did well in the drills for agility and area quickness, better than Warmack. That's something Warford did not. I heard Broaddus mention a couple of times on his shows that Warmack wasn't a great fit for Callahan's scheme but that they thought he could still fit. They obviously did not think that Warford could and Broaddus also mentioned that a couple of times on his show.
 

Risen Star

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speedkilz88;5093434 said:
No, as I said Frederick actually did well in the drills for agility and area quickness, better than Warmack. That's something Warford did not. I heard Broaddus mention a couple of times on his shows that Warmack wasn't a great fit for Callahan's scheme but that they thought he could still fit. They obviously did not think that Warford could and Broaddus also mentioned that a couple of times on his show.

I guess we're at the point of the discussion where I ask you why I should give the benefit of the doubt to those decision makers? Point me in the direction to where they know better. At what point does "they felt differently" stop becoming a legitimate excuse?

Yeah, they felt differently. And maybe they're wrong for the umpteenth time in the last 17 years. Maybe rather than being so selective over the type of OL you want, you take the talent available and adjust your scheme to make it work. Maybe that's a better way to go about addressing an issue that holds this team and it's franchise QB back.

I just hope we're not looking back in three years wondering why we took the backup TE over the pro bowl G. Oh yeah, scheme fit. Bill Callahan. Remember him? I think he's in Cleveland now.
 

FuzzyLumpkins

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Risen Star;5093405 said:
Not really. I don't get in love with players. To put it in your terms I'm player abstinent.

BS. I saw your 'board.' It was a hodgepodge of the draft sites you like with OL rated about 10 or more spots higher than the conventional wisdom.

You even talked about how you would really like to get Warford.
 

speedkilz88

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Risen Star;5093439 said:
I guess we're at the point of the discussion where I ask you why I should give the benefit of the doubt to those decision makers? Point me in the direction to where they know better. At what point does "they felt differently" stop becoming a legitimate excuse?

Yeah, they felt differently. And maybe they're wrong for the umpteenth time in the last 17 years. Maybe rather than being so selective over the type of OL you want, you take the talent available and adjust your scheme to make it work. Maybe that's a better way to go about addressing an issue that holds this team and it's franchise QB back.

I just hope we're not looking back in three years wondering why we took the backup TE over the pro bowl G. Oh yeah, scheme fit. Bill Callahan. Remember him? I think he's in Cleveland now.
You already have Warford in the pro bowl? Sounds like love to me. :laugh2:
 

dstew60105

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speedkilz88;5093467 said:
You already have Warford in the pro bowl? Sounds like love to me. :laugh2:

Exactly. Hey Risen, there is an opening on the Commanders bandwagon. How about doing this place a favor and jumping ship.
 

CF74

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speedkilz88;5093422 said:
6. LARRY WARFORD, Kentucky (6-3, 329, 5.59, 2-3) - Three-year starter at RG. "He's a road grader," one scout said. "Great, big, massive guy. He blocked the big guy (John Jenkins) from Georgia to death. A three-technique is not going to knock him back. His problem is once he gets in space. He doesn't have a lot of lateral quickness." Will become the Wildcats' first O-lineman drafted since G Todd Perry and T Chuck Bradley in 1993. "He does not test well, but he can anchor the pocket," another scout said. "He's got the bulk and the girth to get his hands on people, sit his weight down and control people in the pass rush. Little bit sloppy as a run blocker. Played on a real bad team. He's a potential starter early." From Richmond, Ky. "His feet are so slow," a third scout said. "That bugs me."


http://www.jsonline.com/sports/draft19g-rt9i5uh-203726121.html

Montrae Holland immediately comes to mind when I read that analysis. Put me down in the Warford or best o-line avail over the TE pick but that's behind us now. It took me awhile to get over it and I just hope somebody steps up..

I see our scouts had way lower grades on the o-line prospects than most others did so that clears things up for me. In the future if we have to draft more o-line (And I suspect we might,) we may have to reach early because they tend to go quick, it's just one of those things...
 

WPBCowboysFan

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dstew60105;5093480 said:
Exactly. Hey Risen, there is an opening on the Commanders bandwagon. How about doing this place a favor and jumping ship.

It looks crowded

cropped-header.jpg


31253512.jpg
 

Verdict

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Here is just some food for thought:

1. While I was in favor of the trade down, the argument that the Cowboys did not think that Floyd fit our scheme seems to be merely a smoke screen because he was on our draft board .... a board which had a limited number of players that we said we actually liked and wanted to draft.

2. It is impossible to know how much drop off in talent level the Cowboys thought there was between Floyd at #5 an a player at #18. My guess is not much.

3. The Cowboys passed on Eifert too who they had valued higher than Frederick which gives you some useful information, especially since they took a tight end with their next pick.

4. If they really wanted Floyd they could have taken him at #18 and traded up with their second and third round picks and still got Frederick. I think they valued numbers in this draft and did not want to do that.

5. They targeted certain players and did a good job of getting those players. We will see if their talent evaluation is spot on or not, but they did that with Lee a few years ago and that worked out pretty well.
 

speedkilz88

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They admitted that Floyd technically fits the scheme. Someone like John Jenkins is a guy that doesn't fit the scheme. The problem has more to his value to the scheme rather than his value on the draft board. Kiffin and Marinelli value pass rushing over run stopping so the 1 tech just doesn't have the value that a 3 tech DT has for them and they see Floyd as a 1 technique. They also consistently use DTs at the 1 that are fits at the 3 and why they are trying Hatcher out there.
 

Hoofbite

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Risen Star;5093397 said:
Ah, it's the old unless you've seen other teams boards, you don't know defense.

Of course you could say the same thing for those that say it wasn't a reach too...but I'll play along.

Let's put it this way. In every draft resource available to an informed fan, Travis Frederick was definitely, not maybe, a reach in the 1st round. And this is coming from a guy who actually mentioned his name pre-draft in support of the player.

I just call a spade a spade. No spin. Ever. It is what it is. They bypassed a superior talent on their board to take a trade that wasn't good value because they were targeting need. The GM admitted as much after the fact. Frederick was "the last of the mohicans". We had to have him.

Didn't Frederick himself say that he was surprised because he was expecting later in the 2nd? Not sure but I thought that came out in one of the interviews.
 

Hoofbite

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CowboyMcCoy;5093517 said:
Matt Elam wasn't even on their board. How stupid is that?

So says that one guy at at BTB.

Honestly Id like to see the shots myself.
 
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