DMN: Will McClay builds reputation

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I am sorry to see that you cannot "prove it" and do not have "facts".

I guess the standard of what is proof changes depending on what we are discussing.

There is over 20 years of proof that Jerry Jones is in charge and things have changed very little during that time.

But when it comes down to hoping McClay is changing things, well, maybe the local media, who usually is just evil and unreliable, suddenly becomes credible.

Funny how that all works.

What is funny is that is not my position at all.

I had proof of a contradictory position -I should note that both you and choclab are weak on the notion of mutual exclusivity- and have consistently asked pep for proof of his assertion. This is not a new argument. He over years has never provided a shred of evidence. He gets flippant like you do.

That is not the same as taking x at his word that a radio interview did indeed say that.

 

[Idgit]

I don't know if that counts as "objective proof" or as a "primary source", Lab. I might need something more factual to convince me.

You ought to. A reporter's contemporary account based off of the direct interview of an involved party is also a primary source. It's not necessarily objective proof, though, because the account can contain subjective arguments, might not be factually accurate, or could be simply made up. It's both subjective and primary.

I've got to say, it's sort of absurd, though, honestly, Alexander, for you to pretend it's an unreasonable expectation for somebody to back up an argument with evidence. Of course, arguments are made here all the time without citing evidence, but where it's available, it makes an argument a lot more convincing. Believe it or not, that matters to most people who just come here for information and who aren't constantly beating an emotionally-charged agenda (positive or negative) into the ground in order to get some attention on the internet.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

LOLOL

That quote does not preclude Jones from anything.

 

[xwalker]

I am sorry to see that you cannot "prove it" and do not have "facts".

I guess the standard of what is proof changes depending on what we are discussing.

There is over 20 years of proof that Jerry Jones is in charge and things have changed very little during that time.

But when it comes down to hoping McClay is changing things, well, maybe the local media, who usually is just evil and unreliable, suddenly becomes credible.

Funny how that all works.

Stephen Jones is not the local media.

 

[Idgit]

I am sorry to see that you cannot "prove it" and do not have "facts".

I guess the standard of what is proof changes depending on what we are discussing.

There is over 20 years of proof that Jerry Jones is in charge and things have changed very little during that time.

But when it comes down to hoping McClay is changing things, well, maybe the local media, who usually is just evil and unreliable, suddenly becomes credible.

Funny how that all works.

This should be a friendly discussion among Cowboys fans re: how our front office works amid conflicting reports and anecdotal evidence. Why are you turning it into a campaign for believing in things without supporting evidence? That's just bizarre.

If Ciskowski, or anyone else, is in fact putting the board together, and not McClay as I had earlier believed, well....that's just fine by me. I'll have learned something I didn't know earlier, and the outlook for the upcoming draft doesn't change materially in my mind. If we just don't have enough evidence to know for sure, that's a bummer. But I think I'll somehow persevere. Not every debate on the forum has to be emotionally charged. Or does it? Can't we just sometimes work together to sort something out in the lead up to the best week of the football offseason?

 

[Chocolate Lab]

That quote does not preclude Jones from anything.

What are you trying to say here?

Maybe I don't understand your position on the whole matter. Are you saying that Jerry wasn't jealous and resentful of the attention and credit Jimmy got for building the team? Or something else?

 

[Zimmy Lives]

100 internet points for the Aliens analogy.

Thanks! There are so many other quotes from that movie that could be appropriate in the Cowboys draft war room:

Last year when they passed on the DT …
Ciskowski: "Oh dear Lord Jesus, this ain't happening man. This can't be happening man! This isn't happening!"

This year when Donald, Martin, and Barr are gone at 16...
Stephen:"What are we going to do?!"
McClay:"Maybe we could build a fire! Sing a couple songs! Why don't we try that!"
Jason:"That's it man. Game over man! Game over!"

Jason on Jerry wanting to draft Johnny Football...
Jason:"This is so nuts! I mean, listen to what your saying! It's paranoid delusion! It's really sad! It's pathetic!"

And, the media's take after a bad Cowboys draft…
Gene Jock Tailor:"I say we take off and nuke the entire site (Cowboys War Room) from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."

 

[jterrell]

What are you trying to say here?

Maybe I don't understand your position on the whole matter. Are you saying that Jerry wasn't jealous and resentful of the attention and credit Jimmy got for building the team? Or something else?

Why are you asking questions that are 20 years out of date and have zero to do with this thread??

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Why are you asking questions that are 20 years out of date and have zero to do with this thread??

Why direct this at me? Peplaw and Fuzzy started discussing it over 70 posts ago in this thread.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

What are you trying to say here?

Maybe I don't understand your position on the whole matter. Are you saying that Jerry wasn't jealous and resentful of the attention and credit Jimmy got for building the team? Or something else?

I think all manner of things.

For someone that had such an issue with Johnson getting credit there are a ton of quotes of Jones pouring praise on Johnson for a job well done from that era. I quoted several in this thread.

What I think is that Jones finally got tired of Johnson repeatedly insulting him in public.

 

[Alexander]

You ought to. A reporter's contemporary account based off of the direct interview of an involved party is also a primary source. It's not necessarily objective proof, though, because the account can contain subjective arguments, might not be factually accurate, or could be simply made up. It's both subjective and primary.

I've got to say, it's sort of absurd, though, honestly, Alexander, for you to pretend it's an unreasonable expectation for somebody to back up an argument with evidence. Of course, arguments are made here all the time without citing evidence, but where it's available, it makes an argument a lot more convincing. Believe it or not, that matters to most people who just come here for information and who aren't constantly beating an emotionally-charged agenda (positive or negative) into the ground in order to get some attention on the internet.

It is not unreasonable. I just expect those that say "things have changed" to hold themselves to that same standard recognize that.

We are all in the dark, nobody, absolutely nobody knows exactly how the structure in Dallas goes.

It is left intentionally vague in terms of how it is displayed to the public for a specific reason. There is a real reason why you cannot get a straight statement of fact how it goes. And we all should know why.

But bottom line is that there is over 20 years of non-anecdotal evidence that states that there is one direct line of control.

And it begins and ends with the GM. He is not the "money guy". He is the final decision maker.

The roles have changed around him, coaches have had varying degrees of control but the one rock remains.

You can take a look at Breer's article about NFL power structures here. to see exactly unique this whole vague shell game set up really is.

Sorry, we are not like everyone else.

Nothing has changed until there is proof of it and there likely will never be. And that is Jerry Jones' design.

 

[Zimmy Lives]

It is not unreasonable. I just expect those that say "things have changed" to hold themselves to that same standard recognize that.

We are all in the dark, nobody, absolutely nobody knows exactly how the structure in Dallas goes.

It is left intentionally vague in terms of how it is displayed to the public for a specific reason. There is a real reason why you cannot get a straight statement of fact how it goes. And we all should know why.

But bottom line is that there is over 20 years of non-anecdotal evidence that states that there is one direct line of control.

And it begins and ends with the GM. He is not the "money guy". He is the final decision maker.

The roles have changed around him, coaches have had varying degrees of control but the one rock remains.

You can take a look at Breer's article about NFL power structures here. to see exactly unique this whole vague shell game set up really is.

Sorry, we are not like everyone else.

Nothing has changed until there is proof of it and there likely will never be. And that is Jerry Jones' design.

This is the bottom line realistic truth. Unfortunately, McClay is the flavor of the month. If Dallas knocks this draft out of the the park, McClay will be revered as a savior. If Dallas ends up making several questionable trades and picks, McClay will be forgotten in a month.

Personally, I hope change is in the air for the benefit of the Cowboys and all Cowboys faithful.

 

[DallasEast]

Thanks! There are so many other quotes from that movie that could be appropriate in the Cowboys draft war room:

Last year when they passed on the DT …
Ciskowski: "Oh dear Lord Jesus, this ain't happening man. This can't be happening man! This isn't happening!"

This year when Donald, Martin, and Barr are gone at 16...
Stephen:"What are we going to do?!"
McClay:"Maybe we could build a fire! Sing a couple songs! Why don't we try that!"
Jason:"That's it man. Game over man! Game over!"

Jason on Jerry wanting to draft Johnny Football...
Jason:"This is so nuts! I mean, listen to what your saying! It's paranoid delusion! It's really sad! It's pathetic!"

And, the media's take after a bad Cowboys draft…
Gene Jock Tailor:"I say we take off and nuke the entire site (Cowboys War Room) from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."

One more:

Jerry: Okay, look. What if that pick didn't even exist? Did you ever think about that? I didn't know! So now, if I went and made a major selection situation out of it, everybody steps in. The rest of the front office steps in, and there are no exclusive rights for anybody; nobody wins. So I made a decision, and it was wrong. It was a bad call, Jason. It was a bad call...
Jason: Bad call? Bad call? These picks absolute suck, Jerry! Don't you have any idea what you've done here? Well, I'm gonna make sure the fans nail you right to the wall for this! You're not gonna sleaze your way out of this one! Right to the wall!

 

[Chocolate Lab]

I think all manner of things.

For someone that had such an issue with Johnson getting credit there are a ton of quotes of Jones pouring praise on Johnson for a job well done from that era. I quoted several in this thread.

What I think is that Jones finally got tired of Johnson repeatedly insulting him in public.

So that is what you are arguing, that Jerry didn't have an issue with it? If so, you are a population of one.

As just one more example, why would Jerry ask Jimmy to talk to him in front of the War Room camera before picks in the 1992 draft to make it look like he had something to do with the selection? That was before any kind of public feud.

 

[Zimmy Lives]

One more:

Jerry: Okay, look. What if that pick didn't even exist? Did you ever think about that? I didn't know! So now, if I went and made a major selection situation out of it, everybody steps in. The rest of the front office steps in, and there are no exclusive rights for anybody; nobody wins. So I made a decision, and it was wrong. It was a bad call, Jason. It was a bad call...
Jason: Bad call? Bad call? These picks absolute suck, Jerry! Don't you have any idea what you've done here? Well, I'm gonna make sure the fans nail you right to the wall for this! You're not gonna sleaze your way out of this one! Right to the wall!

Lol! Awesome!

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It is not unreasonable. I just expect those that say "things have changed" to hold themselves to that same standard recognize that.

We are all in the dark, nobody, absolutely nobody knows exactly how the structure in Dallas goes.

It is left intentionally vague in terms of how it is displayed to the public for a specific reason. There is a real reason why you cannot get a straight statement of fact how it goes. And we all should know why.

But bottom line is that there is over 20 years of non-anecdotal evidence that states that there is one direct line of control.

And it begins and ends with the GM. He is not the "money guy". He is the final decision maker.

The roles have changed around him, coaches have had varying degrees of control but the one rock remains.

You can take a look at Breer's article about NFL power structures here. to see exactly unique this whole vague shell game set up really is.

Sorry, we are not like everyone else.

Nothing has changed until there is proof of it and there likely will never be. And that is Jerry Jones' design.

I just read the article and I saw several teams including one in our division where everyone reports to the owner.

Specifically the Bengals, Eagles, and Steelers. There were several other examples like the Saints of locations that did not have one guy but looked for consensus. You should read what you post before you make claims on it.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So that is what you are arguing, that Jerry didn't have an issue with it? If so, you are a population of one.

As just one more example, why would Jerry ask Jimmy to talk to him in front of the War Room camera before picks in the 1992 draft to make it look like he had something to do with the selection? That was before any kind of public feud.

Don't speak for other people. You have a difficult enough time speaking for yourself.

I just gave a bunch of quotes where Jones was pouring accolades onto Johnson. That contradicts the notion that he had a problem with Johnson getting credit.

You also seem to have difficulty grasping the difference between wanting credit and having a problem with someone else getting it.

 

[Corso]

This should be a friendly discussion among Cowboys fans re: how our front office works amid conflicting reports and anecdotal evidence. Why are you turning it into a campaign for believing in things without supporting evidence? That's just bizarre.

If Ciskowski, or anyone else, is in fact putting the board together, and not McClay as I had earlier believed, well....that's just fine by me. I'll have learned something I didn't know earlier, and the outlook for the upcoming draft doesn't change materially in my mind. If we just don't have enough evidence to know for sure, that's a bummer. But I think I'll somehow persevere. Not every debate on the forum has to be emotionally charged. Or does it? Can't we just sometimes work together to sort something out in the lead up to the best week of the football offseason?

The guy's dishing out petty-posts.
Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Don't speak for other people. You have a difficult enough time speaking for yourself.

I just gave a bunch of quotes where Jones was pouring accolades onto Johnson. That contradicts the notion that he had a problem with Johnson getting credit.

You also seem to have difficulty grasping the difference between wanting credit and having a problem with someone else getting it.

LOL. I guess some people get mad and have to resort to insults when they realize they're trying to defend an absurd position.

 

[peplaw06]

Generally accepted by whom? You?

Do you know what generally accepted means? By definition, that's not just one person.

I just linked an account that showed the dynamic completely the other way with quotes from Cowboys coaches, staff and not to mention straight from the horses mouth.

What you posted states, among other things:

why waste time and energy stewing over Jones's rampant ego? Yet Johnson kept letting Jones get to him.

Why should Jimmy really care about what Jerry is telling his friends about how much he had to do with a trade?"

And it talks about the clash of Jimmy vs. Jerry over Everett... where you see a struggle between the two as to who's more responsible for the trade.

And you question whether Jerry was happy he wasn't getting any of the credit???

The question of who's actually responsible for certain moves is irrelevant to my statement that Jerry wasn't happy he wasn't getting credit. Because regardless of who's responsible, it's a plain fact that Jerry wasn't being credited. Why do you think he became so interested in getting the word out that he had something/anything to do with personnel moves being made??

Further your characterization about the SI article indicating that Jerry was butthurt is plain wrong. Its typical bs from you though. From the article:

I didn't read the article... I read what you posted in the thread. And it was clear that Norv was trying to combat Jimmy's angst about Jerry trying to take credit. Why was Jerry trying to take credit? Because he wasn't being seen as a "football guy" by people outside VR perhaps?

Is this really that hard for you to grasp?

And I certainly didn't use that word you can't stop using... Seriously, it's been at least 5 years. Learn a new one.

No, in fact that article clearly shows that Jones was magnanimous about Johnson's efforts to discredit him.

Haven't read the article.

The issue is that you never provide any proof whatsoever. I call you on it every time and even after all these years you still only repeat the same unsubstantiated drivel. You can keep repeating yourself but its not going to suddenly make it true nor does it make you have any standard whatsoever for proof.

People can see that now and that is all I really care about.

What people? You?

I've provided plenty of proof in my years on this board and others. Plenty of threads we've both posted in, and you've been curiously quiet as to my posts. It just seems when I talk badly about Jerry, you get your panties in a bunch. Get over it.