Landry and Jimmy would have cut TO!!

[Doomsday101]

Crayton has better hands than TO - better than most receivers. Parcells has on several ocassions said that Crayton has the best hands on the team.

But Crayton is lacking in all the other areas that make TO outstanding, and that's the point. Great hands have never been TO's strongest asset as a receiver - he has always been somewhat average (maybe somewhat above average, but certainly not outstanding) in that area.

I never said the guy was average though - you missread my comments if you thought I did. I merely said that other factors separate him from typical NFL receivers more than his hands do.

I have watched TO his whole career and right now he is not living up to what I think Jones was expecting or what many fans expected. He is not making the clutch catch when we need it the most and great players do that. I have seen star players have average days but come up big when you need it the most

 

[joseephuss]

so far KEY>TO

consider the off the field junk

and for us key was clutch, I don't care what he does for the panthers.

You have to consider what he does for the Panthers because that is the trade off. If Dallas re-signed Key, it would be Key at another year older.

Key would not have dropped that bomb from Romo. Of course, Key would not have split the corner and safety and gotten past them on a deep route, so it would not have been a long TD to him either.

 

[LaTunaNostra]

All I am asking is for people to just step back, take a breath, and be fair to the guy, ... even though they hate him now and hated him before he came here.

You keep using the word 'hate', and I must say it is a bit strong. There is no one currently playing football who merits that strong an emotion - even Haynesworth.

I freely admit I disdain/loathe/despise what Owens represents - did before he came here and do now - ego run totally amuck, self over team, celebrity worship by the young and impressionable, style over substance, and talent untempered by humility. Call me 'old school', but I enjoy the colorful personalities like Irvin and Key only if they prove themselves team-builders as well as play-makers.

I simply do not like out of control ego - it's a sickness, I realize, but there are 52 other individuals on a team who also have healthy egos. If they ALL acted like Owens, no team could function. Why don't we see JJ, still pretty young, or Jason, acting out in the endzone? At their age, it'd be more acceptable. In a 33 year old, it appears pathological, and pathology makes most folks feel a but uncomfy.

Why don't we see T, JJ, Patrick demanding the ball? When after a three td game, Owens had the nerve to moan about not being involved sooner, it as obvious that "Little T has NO intention of sharing the ball". And I dread what comes down on our young QBs head on that fateful day he CANNOT or does not get Owens the ball in the quantity and quality he feels he deserves.

Just let Owens do ONE thing to make that boy's path harder and then I guarantee it you will see "hate".

When Owens was signed he replaced one of my favorite all-time NFL players, but I never once dogged the decision. With Key, the offense lacked enough firepower. Owens is providing more of that..no one can deny it. But he is not doing with his more than fair share of the ball what most folks thought he could or should do.

He can be not just accepted but embraced by even we folks who put team character over winning at all costs. Just act with class...class - don't diss, whine, bray, don't expect 'vet slack or preference', act in the endzone like you've been in the endzone, respect the coaches....that's all the man has to do to make even drops like last week's bearable.

Be a man, not mass of egotistic whims and exhibitionist cravings.

"Hate" can turn to esteem. It did with KJ. It can with Owens if he shows he cares more about his team than his ego. If he shows some humility on a steady, everyday basis (not just after dropping a game winning pass), everyone will embrace him.

 

[Stautner]

I have watched TO his whole career and right now he is not living up to what I think Jones was expecting or what many fans expected. He is not making the clutch catch when we need it the most and great players do that. I have seen star players have average days but come up big when you need it the most

I'll go along with this, TO doesn't have the great hands of some top receivers, but we are paying him a hell of a lot of money to make the clutch plays. But realistically we are talking about a couple of passes in a couple of games only - there is no evidence this will be the norm. If, however, TO continues to drop key passes over the course of the season I will be the first to condemn him. But we should know that ocassional drops are part of what you get with TO and that the overall results are expected to outweigh that. So far that's questionable, but until I see more of a clear pattern of drops it isn't worth worrying about.

 

[Doomsday101]

I'll go along with this, TO doesn't have the great hands of some top receivers, but we are paying him a hell of a lot of money to make the clutch plays. But realistically we are talking about a couple of passes in a couple of games only - there is no evidence this will be the norm. If, however, TO continues to drop key passes over the course of the season I will be the first to condemn him. But we should know that ocassional drops are part of what you get with TO and that the overall results are expected to outweigh that. So far that's questionable, but until I see more of a clear pattern of drops it isn't worth worrying about.

I agree and I hope for better than what I'm seeing because his act is not worth it if he can't back it up in clutch time. I understand every WR has drops but great players make great plays when the team needs it the most. Add to that he is not going to get sympathy from too many when he is hollering for the ball and then does not make the catch.

 

[Stautner]

I agree and I hope for better than what I'm seeing because his act is not worth it if he can't back it up in clutch time. I understand every WR has drops but great players make great plays when the team needs it the most. Add to that he is not going to get sympathy from too many when he is hollering for the ball and then does not make the catch.

The statement in bold tells a lot about why TO is getting so much flak over the drop, and I'll be the first to admit that I was yelling exactly that at the TV when he missed the ball.

 

[Doomsday101]

The statement in bold tells a lot about why TO is getting so much flak over the drop, and I'll be the first to admit that I was yelling exactly that at the TV when he missed the ball.

No doubt it hurts his cause. If your going to jump in peoples faces about wanting the ball then damn it make the catch when we need it the most. He gets the majority of passes in his directions and I'm not seeing Glenn on the sideline hollering at the staff, I'm not seeing Witten doing that yet in the Commander game it was Witten coming up with the clutch catch when we needed it the most (Too bad a blocked FG whipped that out) When TO had his chance to put us 14 points on top he failed. So for me if he is going to carry on about wanting the ball then I expect him to make the plays.

 

[braw]

You keep using the word 'hate', and I must say it is a bit strong. There is no one currently playing football who merits that strong an emotion - even Haynesworth.

I freely admit I disdain/loathe/despise what Owens represents - did before he came here and do now - ego run totally amuck, self over team, celebrity worship by the young and impressionable, style over substance, and talent untempered by humility. Call me 'old school', but I enjoy the colorful personalities like Irvin and Key only if they prove themselves team-builders as well as play-makers.

I simply do not like out of control ego - it's a sickness, I realize, but there are 52 other individuals on a team who also have healthy egos. If they ALL acted like Owens, no team could function. Why don't we see JJ, still pretty young, or Jason, acting out in the endzone? At their age, it'd be more acceptable. In a 33 year old, it appears pathological, and pathology makes most folks feel a but uncomfy.

Why don't we see T, JJ, Patrick demanding the ball? When after a three td game, Owens had the nerve to moan about not being involved sooner, it as obvious that "Little T has NO intention of sharing the ball". And I dread what comes down on our young QBs head on that fateful day he CANNOT or does not get Owens the ball in the quantity and quality he feels he deserves.

Just let Owens do ONE thing to make that boy's path harder and then I guarantee it you will see "hate".

When Owens was signed he replaced one of my favorite all-time NFL players, but I never once dogged the decision. With Key, the offense lacked enough firepower. Owens is providing more of that..no one can deny it. But he is not doing with his more than fair share of the ball what most folks thought he could or should do.

He can be not just accepted but embraced by even we folks who put team character over winning at all costs. Just act with class...class - don't diss, whine, bray, don't expect 'vet slack or preference', act in the endzone like you've been in the endzone, respect the coaches....that's all the man has to do to make even drops like last week's bearable.

Be a man, not mass of egotistic whims and exhibitionist cravings.

"Hate" can turn to esteem. It did with KJ. It can with Owens if he shows he cares more about his team than his ego. If he shows some humility on a steady, everyday basis (not just after dropping a game winning pass), everyone will embrace him.

I have one question for you and the answer will shed some light on your belief of football.

What College team has been the most dominant in the last 15 yrs? And What college has produced or drafted the most NFL players?

When you find the answer, you will see that college always produces the player you just described above, yet why are they so successful in the NFL.

 

[WV Cowboy]

You keep using the word 'hate', and I must say it is a bit strong. There is no one currently playing football who merits that strong an emotion - even Haynesworth.

I freely admit I disdain/loathe/despise what Owens represents - did before he came here and do now - ego run totally amuck, self over team, celebrity worship by the young and impressionable, style over substance, and talent untempered by humility. Call me 'old school', but I enjoy the colorful personalities like Irvin and Key only if they prove themselves team-builders as well as play-makers.

I simply do not like out of control ego - it's a sickness, I realize, but there are 52 other individuals on a team who also have healthy egos. If they ALL acted like Owens, no team could function. Why don't we see JJ, still pretty young, or Jason, acting out in the endzone? At their age, it'd be more acceptable. In a 33 year old, it appears pathological, and pathology makes most folks feel a but uncomfy.

Why don't we see T, JJ, Patrick demanding the ball? When after a three td game, Owens had the nerve to moan about not being involved sooner, it as obvious that "Little T has NO intention of sharing the ball". And I dread what comes down on our young QBs head on that fateful day he CANNOT or does not get Owens the ball in the quantity and quality he feels he deserves.

Just let Owens do ONE thing to make that boy's path harder and then I guarantee it you will see "hate".

When Owens was signed he replaced one of my favorite all-time NFL players, but I never once dogged the decision. With Key, the offense lacked enough firepower. Owens is providing more of that..no one can deny it. But he is not doing with his more than fair share of the ball what most folks thought he could or should do.

He can be not just accepted but embraced by even we folks who put team character over winning at all costs. Just act with class...class - don't diss, whine, bray, don't expect 'vet slack or preference', act in the endzone like you've been in the endzone, respect the coaches....that's all the man has to do to make even drops like last week's bearable.

Be a man, not mass of egotistic whims and exhibitionist cravings.

"Hate" can turn to esteem. It did with KJ. It can with Owens if he shows he cares more about his team than his ego. If he shows some humility on a steady, everyday basis (not just after dropping a game winning pass), everyone will embrace him.

I freely admit I disdain/loathe/despise what Owens represents - did before he came here and do now

You could have saved a lot of typing and stopped right there.

 

[LaTunaNostra]

I have one question for you and the answer will shed some light on your belief of football.

What College team has been the most dominant in the last 15 yrs? And What college has produced or drafted the most NFL players?

When you find the answer, you will see that college always produces the player you just described above, yet why are they so successful in the NFL.

I'm a Boston College grad. Not a U of Miami.

My perspective on college ball is the teams that graduate the most players (like my alma mater and Notre Dame) are the real winners.

And don't tell me every Miami player is a thuggish egomaniac.

2004 DROY Jonathan Vilma speaks four languages and is the epitome of the scholar-athlete.

My "belief of football" is that character is individual. And that FAR more 'good guys' have succeeded in the pros than loudmouth aholes.

 

[LaTunaNostra]

I freely admit I disdain/loathe/despise what Owens represents - did before he came here and do now

You could have saved a lot of typing and stopped right there.

Of course, I admit that I lament what the NFL is becoming, and see that Owens represents a side of the game -rampant ego and self-aggrandizement over team - that no one wants his children to imitate.

Character, despite your protestations, is not yet a dirty word.

 

[WV Cowboy]

Of course, I admit that I lament what the NFL is becoming, and see that Owens represents a side of the game -rampant ego and self-aggrandizement over team - that no one wants his children to imitate.

Character, despite your protestations, is not yet a dirty word.

I haven't seen much of what you speak of from Owens, other than the recent EZ celebration.
Which I thought was funny until it drew a flag.

Question : Did you root for M. Irvin ?

 

[LaTunaNostra]

I haven't seen much of what you speak of from Owens, other than the recent EZ celebration.
Which I thought was funny until it drew a flag.

Question : Did you root for M. Irvin ?

Answer: Irvin was one of my favorite NFL players long before I became a Cowboys fan. The prototype brash, in-your-face receiver, he changed the qualifications for his position as much as any player did, and expanded the definition of his position as much as Fran Tarkenton did his.

What I really loved about Irvin's game was his trash-talking, boa ****l self was subjugated to the team chemistry. That man was every bit the definition of team player. The way Aikman expresses it will never be surpassed - Irvin was all about team. (And I was amused to see Troy Aikman chafe re the supposition that Owens is like Irvin..blasphemy!).

I loved MI's charisma, still do, and he's a great example of a 'loudmouth' who is also lovable. A genuinely decent guy...imo, a good man who lost hsi way, then with God's help, refound it. He had his demons to battle, and his personal struggle with addiction was one I both pitied and admired him for. His battle over addiction was one of the most profound examples of character I have witnessed in the NFL.

He wanted the ball, he excelled with the ball...and he was all about TEAM.

I think there area three trophies and an equal number of rings that prove it.

 

[Cowboy4ever]

Answer: Irvin was one of my favorite NFL players long before I became a Cowboys fan. The prototype brash, in-your-face receiver, he changed the qualifications for his position as much as any player did, and expanded the definition of his position as much as Fran Tarkenton did his.

What I really loved about Irvin's game was his trash-talking, boa ****l self was subjugated to the team chemistry. That man was every bit the definition of team player. The way Aikman expresses it will never be surpassed - Irvin was all about team. (And I was amused to see Troy Aikman chafe re the supposition that Owens is like Irvin..blasphemy!).

I loved MI's charisma, still do, and he's a great example of a 'loudmouth' who is also lovable. A genuinely decent guy...imo, a good man who lost hsi way, then with God's help, refound it. He had his demons to battle, and his personal struggle with addiction was one I both pitied and admired him for. His battle over addiction was one of the most profound examples of character I have witnessed in the NFL.

He wanted the ball, he excelled with the ball...and he was all about TEAM.

I think there area three trophies and an equal number of rings that prove it.

I respect your support of MI.. however, people see what they want to see. I could just as easily say Michael was a coke head that put a distructive personal life ahead of the team, being suspended for 4 games was a distraction tot he team and thus he was selfish. What you call a profound example of character,, I can call a profound lack of character to put yourself in that position in the first place.

I have not seen any evidence that TO has been a bad team mate on this team. If anyone wants to use the celebration as evidence, I just can't agree with this.

 

[LaTunaNostra]

I respect your support of MI.. however, people see what they want to see. I could just as easily say Michael was a coke head that put a distructive personal life ahead of the team, being suspended for 4 games was a distraction tot he team and thus he was selfish. What you call a profound example of character,, I can call a profound lack of character to put yourself in that position in the first place.

I have not seen any evidence that TO has been a bad team mate on this team. If anyone wants to use the celebration as evidence, I just can't agree with this.

Inevitably, Irvin ends becoming a foil for Owen's shenanigans. He's always the court of last resort for the TO enablers. Mike was worse..he took drugs.

From certain apologists you know it's only a matter of time before Irvin's battle with addiction becomes an excuse for Owens egoism. Tick, tick, tick..TOCK!:laugh2:

Damn that Irvin, anyway. He's paved the way for all kind of behavior, most of which has no correlation with Mike's triumph over drugs..but what the heck, they'll keep dogging Irvin as a comparison, regardless of how inaccurate it is.

 

[WV Cowboy]

Answer: Irvin was one of my favorite NFL players long before I became a Cowboys fan. The prototype brash, in-your-face receiver, he changed the qualifications for his position as much as any player did, and expanded the definition of his position as much as Fran Tarkenton did his.

What I really loved about Irvin's game was his trash-talking, boa ****l self was subjugated to the team chemistry. That man was every bit the definition of team player. The way Aikman expresses it will never be surpassed - Irvin was all about team. (And I was amused to see Troy Aikman chafe re the supposition that Owens is like Irvin..blasphemy!).

I loved MI's charisma, still do, and he's a great example of a 'loudmouth' who is also lovable. A genuinely decent guy...imo, a good man who lost hsi way, then with God's help, refound it. He had his demons to battle, and his personal struggle with addiction was one I both pitied and admired him for. His battle over addiction was one of the most profound examples of character I have witnessed in the NFL.

He wanted the ball, he excelled with the ball...and he was all about TEAM.

I think there area three trophies and an equal number of rings that prove it.

Well I had to ask since you did mention character.

Drugs, prostitution, adultery, ... these don't exude character.

Irvin brought WAYYY more shame to the Cowboys family than Owens ever ever will.

You understand Irvins demons, but not Owens.

Irvin didn't one day decide to overcome his addictions, he was told you will go to prison if you don't, ... big difference.

The absolute worst and hardest time for me to be a Cowboys fan was when he was pulling all of his crap and I had to hear it from other fans.

I never waivered in my devotion to the Cowboys, but it was a hard time to be a fan, ... I couldn't condone or support any of what he was doing.

Other teams fans made it very hard to wear my Cowboys gear, and for a very long time after that.

I felt the worst for the Cowboys of character during that time because they were getting lumped in with all of that mess, the whole organization did.

The whole team was viewed as criminal. I felt bad for Emmitt, Troy, Jay, Moose, etc, .. the men of character.

So to defend MI and blast Owens makes little sense to me.

 

[Maikeru-sama]

Coach Landry would have fired TO today !! Jimmy would not have even let TO
on the team plane.

No he wouldnt.

It is nice to look back on our glorious history with nastalgia but let's not completely re-write history here.

I implore you to do research on some the colorful characters, both Landry and Johnson put up with while here in Dallas.

And T.O. is a choir boy compared to some of those guys.

- Mike G.

 

[Cowboy4ever]

Inevitably, Irvin ends becoming a foil for Owen's shenanigans. He's always the court of last resort for the TO enablers. Mike was worse..he took drugs.

From certain apologists you know it's only a matter of time before Irvin's battle with addiction becomes an excuse for Owens egoism. Tick, tick, tick..TOCK!:laugh2:

Damn that Irvin, anyway. He's paved the way for all kind of behavior, most of which has no correlation with Mike's triumph over drugs..but what the heck, they'll keep dogging Irvin as a comparison, regardless of how inaccurate it is.

I am not a TO apologist. I am a Cowboy fan and I have respect and DO like Mike Irvin very much. However, the point of my post was to show that people see what they want to see,,, regardless of who it is. You seem to have an agenda against TO.. and that is fine.. but to give Irvin all the praise and even use his use of drugs as an illustration of what good character he has but yet condemn TO for a TD Celebration does not make sense to me.

TO is a loud mouth player, he talks a LOT! But does he really deserve to be ripped as a person like he is? People call him a loser, a childish man, a selfish person, etc.. but look around the league.. he hasn't stab anyone, he hasn't raped anyone, he hasn't shot at anyone, he hasn't been arressted for Drug use or suspended for drug use. That is all I am trying to say, really. If you don't want TO on this team, fine, I have no problem with that,, there are a few players I don't want on this team either.

 

[WV Cowboy]

I am not a TO apologist. I am a Cowboy fan and I have respect and DO like Mike Irvin very much. However, the point of my post was to show that people see what they want to see,,, regardless of who it is. You seem to have an agenda against TO.. and that is fine.. but to give Irvin all the praise and even use his use of drugs as an illustration of what good character he has but yet condemn TO for a TD Celebration does not make sense to me.

TO is a loud mouth player, he talks a LOT! But does he really deserve to be ripped as a person like he is? People call him a loser, a childish man, a selfish person, etc.. but look around the league.. he hasn't stab anyone, he hasn't raped anyone, he hasn't shot at anyone, he hasn't been arressted for Drug use or suspended for drug use. That is all I am trying to say, really. If you don't want TO on this team, fine, I have no problem with that,, there are a few players I don't want on this team either.

I am not a TO apologist either, although I am sure I am viewed that way.

When he does something wrong in the nature of what you say above or in the nature of what he was accused of on previous teams, I will call him on it.

By the way, did you see the Raider last night knee a Seahawk in the groin ?

Another example of behavior far worse than we are discussing here.

 

[khiladi]

Key would not have dropped that bomb from Romo. Of course, Key would not have split the corner and safety and gotten past them on a deep route, so it would not have been a long TD to him either.

I seem to remember a wide receiver from Carolina by the name of Keyshawn Johnson dropping a ball placed right in his hands against the Dallas Cowboys the week before?

But maybe Carolina had two people by the name of Keyshawn Johnson that happen to look identically alike and wear the same numbers...

And remember... Keyshawn last year was saying how he is equivalent to Michael Irvin, and in fact better than him... How we forget so easily....