Landry and Jimmy would have cut TO!!

[LaTunaNostra]

Well I had to ask since you did mention character.

And you couldn't resist another opportunity to besmirch Mike's.

Drugs, prostitution, adultery, ... these don't exude character.

They certainly do not. But finding the Lord and overcoming these vices most certainly does. Irvin needs to be upheld as a man whose life was saved thru faith, as an example of what humbling oneself before God and accepting salvation means in the life of any 'sinner'.

Religion is off topic here, but this needs to be said.

Irvin brought WAYYY more shame to the Cowboys family than Owens ever ever will.

Of course, he did, but he has NOTHING to do with Owens...dragging him thru the mud again only demonstrated to what extent you will go to support Owen's selfish behavior.

You understand Irvins demons, but not Owens.

That's another bold faced lie. I've said often on this board I clearly understand the pathology of his addiction to exhibitionism. He's sick, as Irvin was. The diff is Mike humbled himself and sought help. He changed. Let Owens do the same.

Irvin didn't one day decide to overcome his addictions, he was told you will go to prison if you don't, ... big difference.

No one ordered him to find Christ, or to stick with Him. He chose to. Meaningless to you perhaps, but not to me.

The absolute worst and hardest time for me to be a Cowboys fan was when he was pulling all of his crap and I had to hear it from other fans.

Yeah, well I wasn't even a Boys fan but I spent plenty of time on the old board at TSN defending both MI and Dallas fans against the "America's Criminals' forum dwellers who gerneralized the behavior of a few licentious players into an indictment of the whole franchise..there but for fortune goes ANY NFL fan. Plus that's how I sharpened my own trash-talking.

I never waivered in my devotion to the Cowboys, but it was a hard time to be a fan, ... I couldn't condone or support any of what he was doing.

Other teams fans made it very hard to wear my Cowboys gear, and for a very long time after that.

I felt the worst for the Cowboys of character during that time because they were getting lumped in with all of that mess, the whole organization did.

The whole team was viewed as criminal. I felt bad for Emmitt, Troy, Jay, Moose, etc, .. the men of character.

Again, the comparison between Irvin's past misdeeds off field and Owen's me-istic approach to the game is not just irrelevant, but self-serving. By turning the discussion to Irvin's past, tho, you do exactly what you non-stop accuse others of doing here re Owens..bringing up his PAST to condemn his future.

If you want the bashing of Garcia, or the mess in Philly to be off limits, understand that MI's past is too. Especially since Mike's got zilch to do with TO.

So to defend MI and blast Owens makes little sense to me.

Of course it does. You brought up Mike once again to take the heat off Owens in this thread.

And you'll continue to do so.

But I will also continue to call you on what is a clear staw-man argument..and frankly, to continue vilifying a man who has PAID FOR HIS MISTAKES, and has NOTHING to do with Owens doesn't exactly resound of 'character' either.

 

[khiladi]

TO speaks a lot about how the Lord plays an important part in his life? He also thinks he is 'saved'...

I don't think that being 'saved' would prevent Irvin from being a loud-mouthed show-boat, who enjoys the spotlight... This former wide receiver of the Cowboys is also the NUMBER ONE defender of Terrel Owens, even after being 'saved'...

Of course, he did, but he has NOTHING to do with Owens...dragging him thru the mud again only demonstrated to what extent you will go to support Owen's selfish behavior.

Michael Irvin says TO is getting a bad wrap and he is honestly a good guy, and is nowhere near the selfish man the media makes him out to be....

 

[LaTunaNostra]

I am not a TO apologist.

I know you're not. But others are, and my point I hope is clear on my prior post.

Using Mike Irvin's past to mimimize Owens' egoism issues is ludicrous.

But part and parcel of the apologist bag of tricks.

Inevitably, all such discussions end in 'MI'.

 

[khiladi]

Of course they end with Michael Irvin, because Michael Irvin was doing those things while he was PLAYING... Michael's shenanigans really ended after he left football....

And we are speaking about TO in the context of FOOTBALL and what HE DOES TO THE TEAM...

The real hypocrisy is those that are standing on some moral high-horse regarding TO, and failing to recognize their silence when it came to Michael Irvin... Michael Irvin bled silver and blue before he became involved those unfortunate incidents that clouded his life... the different with TO is that he just came from ANOTHER team....

And what TO has done is nowhere near as bad as what Michael did, while with the team... Hell, what about Stephen Jackson and the Indiana Pacers? The guy went gung-ho in front of a strip club at 3 in the morning, the day before training camp...

What about half of the Minnesota Vikings and their little escapades on the boat? Indecent exposure, as well as engaging in lewd activities in public...

TO called Donovan McNabb, the media's token quarterback soft...

I'm sorry, but that just doesn't compare to cocaine and hookers... Did Miami get blasted for trading for Duante Culpepper? It seems that incident is well forgotten in the media...

We sound like Eagle fans, ready to jump on TO no matter the chance...

 

[Cowboy4ever]

I know you're not. But others are, and my point I hope is clear on my prior post.

Using Mike Irvin's past to mimimize Owens' egoism issues is ludicrous.

But part and parcel of the apologist bag of tricks.

Inevitably, all such discussions end in 'MI'.

Well My main thing is TO gets a bad rap. Now he deserves some if it and I am sure he is toting a good fine for that celebration. People that dis like TO will take that play, his comments about not being used properly, etc. and just hold that up to show proof that he is a ego manic , selfish player that only cares about himself.. and I don't see it that way. I am not going to hate TO for things he has not done yet, as some on this board and most of the media do.

And when you compare TO to a lot of the players both past and present, he is a choir boy. I can not call his character into question at all.

 

[LaTunaNostra]

This former wide receiver of the Cowboys is also the NUMBER ONE defender of Terrel Owens, even after being saved...

More proof of the Christian compassion of Michael Irvin - he clearly wants to see Owens reclaimed....he has said several times he thinks Parcells will be a good influence on TO, perhaps the 'father figure' he needs. Mike's interest in Owens appears part vicarious let-me-live-thru-your-career second-hand glory. (after all, MI's career was cut short by injury).

But his interest is also that of a genuinely concerned friend.
He wants Owens to find an environment that will nurture the best in him - and it could be here with Bill if only he will learn to subordinate that ego.

Yes, Mike wants only good for his friend. Irvin is a good man.

And that fact is more reason to keep Mike's past out of any such discussions.


I fail to see why a discussion of TO's issues as a player should time and again be turned into an indictment of Mike's past.

 

[khiladi]

More proof of the Christian compassion of Michael Irvin - he clearly wants to see Owens reclaimed....he has said several times he thinks Parcells will be a good influence on TO, perhaps the 'father figure' he needs. Mike's interest in Owens appears part vicarious let-me-live-thru-your-career second-hand glory. (after all, MI's career was cut short by injury).

Reclaimed? TO is a Christian... Michael Irvin does not say TO needs to be reclaimed... What he says is that TO is misunderstood and is NOT SELFISH... What he says is that the IMAGE about TO is just plain WRONG... This means he does not put the team over himself....

The issue is not Michael Irvin now... The issue is people trying to make TO look like a bad guy, when they ignore things that have been done by players that have been WAY, WAY WORSE... activities that are wrong not only morally, but legally as well...

Michael Irvin RELATES to the way TO plays, because he played just like him... With passion... And who is better than knowing his own self, than Michael Irvin...

In summary, Michaal Irvin says that TO is not what YOU claim TO to be...

The real fact of the matter is that TO was called out because he called McNabb soft. He than said that they would be much better with Brett Favre as quarterback... And Michael Irvin HIMSELF tried to DEFEND this statement... People have done a lot worse things to destroy teams, and yet the media lets it go... But when it comes defending their precious McNabb, the media seems to come out in droves...

The Philly organization wasn't crying when Baltimore was cheated out of TO... They seemed to be happy with the whole incident... They did everything in their power to support TO, when they knew that they would profit off of it... What happened to the media after that incident? But that would make Philadelphia and McNabb look like a bunch of hypocrites... and we can't have that happen, right?

And one more thing, before somebody finds it necessary to jump on TO not being happy when he was traded to Baltimore... if that is a problem, than you need to talk about the New York Giants and Eli Manning... last I checked, Eli Manning is in NY because he did not want to play for a certain team...

 

[LaTunaNostra]

In summary, Michaal Irvin says that TO is not what YOU claim TO to be...

Possibly. But just because I love Mike doesn't mean I think he's always right.


There is, btw, a kind of argument that you're taught to stay away from in the first week of Logic 101. And that is the "Pol Pot wasn't so bad because Hitler killed more people" argument.

Using Mike Irvin's (or any other player's past indiscretions)to absolve another's present - well, it's just not sound reasoning.

Of course, criminal activity is far more serious than mean-spiritedly outing a former QB in a national magazine. Coke snorting and whoring more pernicious an influence than boasting, strutting, whining, sleeping in meetings, or screeching "Why'd y'all bring me here" like a banshee on the sidelines.

No one has ever called Owens a criminal, or implied he is.

He's just an obnoxious PUNK. Unlikable to the nth degree.

But there's hope for him - the team is filled with character guys whose influence has at least some shot at rubbing off. As he pops up from his end-zone laydown and sprints to the side-line, his teammates waiting to high-five him, ignored in his wake, Owens looks like naught but the quintessential a-hole.

Not a criminal.

Not a monster.

Just your garden variety a-hole.

A Bobby Bonds sans steroids, if you will.

But thanks to him, we've got the seeds of the best Hater/Apologist controversy since, well....Quincy Carter.

I was an "apologist" then..but this "hater" role is fun as well.

 

[CanadianCowboysFan]

I know you're not. But others are, and my point I hope is clear on my prior post.

Using Mike Irvin's past to mimimize Owens' egoism issues is ludicrous.

But part and parcel of the apologist bag of tricks.

Inevitably, all such discussions end in 'MI'.

Not sure if they are doing so, but only to show that the belief that somehow Landry and Johnson never would have players like Owens is false.

 

[khiladi]

My point is that the media plays a huge role in how we perceive of TO...

I'm not trying to absolve him of anything... I'm just saying, put his actions in the proper place qand stop the exxagerations and moral high-horse... every single thing that he has been accused of doing, there are plenty of examples of other receivers doing the same exact thing in the NFL... and there are others doing far worse...

but when it comes to TO, because of the way he's been painted in the media, everything is blown way out of proportion, and they don't let TO catch a break even when he hasn't done anything... and people say, well TO deserves it... no he hasn't... he deserved SOME of IT, not all of it... the media is being a bunch of hypocrites...

the last incident of 'show-boating' is the longest in a series of this moral high-horse.. these flags happen all the time... one minute, the receiver becomes the center of attention by the media, with that receiver getting commercials celebrating his creativity, aka Chad Johnson and ESPN, and the next minute, that same media is blasting a guy for being just as creative...

what's ironic is that very ESPN is showing one of the proposed celebrations for Chad Johnson lying down on the ground and shaking.... what? you can shake, but not pretend your sleeping?

if the media would settle down, I'd be willing to bet that TO would not be viewed with that much bad publicity...

Philly created this MAGNIFIED rep regarding TO, but they didn't say jack squat when TO expressed his dislike of being in Baltimore with the Ravens... they did all they could to get TO to Philly.... and the reason it even blew up on them was because of McNabb...

 

[LaTunaNostra]

Not sure if they are doing so, but only to show that the belief that somehow Landry and Johnson never would have players like Owens is false.

That argument hasn't been made, CCF.

And frankly, tho I was stunned Bill agreed at the stage of his career and after the Philly fiasco, to accept Owens, the only coach today I feel relatively confident WOULD turn Owens down in any scenario is Belichick.

Yes Mumbles. :bang2:

The guy who actually CAN win w/o 'super-stars'.

 

[WV Cowboy]

LaTunaNostra,

The other day I asked if you were OK because some of your posts had become nasty & mean spirited, so I should have known better than to try to discuss this with you.

That is my fault.

I have kept this civil, yet in your last post to me, you:

* Accused me of supporting Owens' selfish behavior, which I have not.
* Called me a bold faced liar
* Suggested that I feel a relationship with Christ is meaningless, which anyone on this board that knows me knows that couldn't be further from the truth.
* Accused me of being self-serving
* And lastly, questioned my character, .. you have no way of knowing my character.

We will just have to agree to disagree on Owens.

BTW, ...
Like you said, religion is off-topic here but this needs to be said, Mikes salvation is a wonderful thing, but it has nothing to do with what Mike did, ... it is because God called him and has everything to do with what Jesus did for him.

I'm done.

 

[BHendri5]

Landry and Jimmy would not have cut Owens.

1. because Jones would not have allowed them too.
2. Jones fired Landry
3. Jimmy could not touch the top tier players without Jerry permission, and he also was fired.

4. Neither one of those guys are/were idiots.
5. With Landry Owens would never have a problem with the media. or Landry would not have let the media around as much.

6. Jimmys same as number 5.

 

[braw]

I'm a Boston College grad. Not a U of Miami.

My perspective on college ball is the teams that graduate the most players (like my alma mater and Notre Dame) are the real winners.

And don't tell me every Miami player is a thuggish egomaniac.

2004 DROY Jonathan Vilma speaks four languages and is the epitome of the scholar-athlete.

My "belief of football" is that character is individual. And that FAR more 'good guys' have succeeded in the pros than loudmouth aholes.

I did not ask for what University you went to,but since you brought up the subject. BC grad with a BA in Liberal Arts( English, Communications, or Jornalism).....Hot or Cold..

More to Come.....

 

[Doomsday101]

I will say Landry had Thomas and Henderson on his team Landry also got rid of both. I'm not looking through any rose color glasses with Landry but even former player understood it was Landry way no ands, if's or but's about it. I'm not saying all these players were saints but players did what the staff told them or they did not stay around long. I think many of the coaches like Landry and Lombardie would have difficult time with many of todays players who seem to think the game is about them and not the team.

 

[khiladi]

Landry got rid of them because they were not performing...

and today's world is a lot different than yesterdays... TO is doing what other players are doing NOW... he is no different from them... in fact, he doesn't warrant that much attention...

Duante Culpepper and the rest of the Vikings... indecent exposure on a boat... criminal activity.. Duante is tarded because he's unhappy...

Duante Culpepper SEEN AS THE SAVIOR of Miami Dolphins..

TO calls quarterback soft... quarterback gets angry... yet, TO is still friends with half the Eagles...

TO is Hitler..

Reality check people...

 

[Doomsday101]

Landry got rid of them because they were not performing...

and today's world is a lot different than yesterdays... TO is doing what other players are doing NOW... he is no different from them... to single him out as Hitler is ridiculous...

Thomas was performing we had just came off the SB same with Henderson. Landry did not put up with BS from players period. When our kicker got into some off the field problems he was gone. As for TO I never said he was hitler but he is a loud mouth who is more concerned with TO than anything else including this team and if you don't think so then your living in a dream world.

 

[LaTunaNostra]

My point is that the media plays a huge role in how we perceive of TO..

For some, agreed. But the media didn't tell us Owens' TD display last week was an onistic display of self-congratulations and self-adoration...his ignoring his teammates AFTER his little tableau did that.

Then he comes back to the sidelines and gives Bill guff.

And has the noive to say he took the penalty to 'inspire his teammates'.

If he wanted to inspire them, perhaps high-fiving a few of his colleagues rather than acting out the latest drama in his endless soap opera would have accomplished that mission?

But that would have meant including them, it would have
meant sharing the moment with them..and by doing so a little of what Owens lives for - ATTENTION - would have been usurped by the 'extras' in his endless soap opera.

It's true. An Owens self-celebratory orgasm is a fascinating scene. Totally individualistic, a monument in time to self over team. And also, time and again, evidential of his psychosis.

None can compare with the infamous star incident, of course. But what was most notable about that event was his reaction on being shoved so forcibly by Teague.

Did he shove back, in a natural reaction to physical, aggressive contact? Did he shrink away? Did he succumb to either physiological imperative - fight OR flight? Did he do what comes naturally to the vast majority of human beings?

No, he did this - he returned to the star. He regained the star to finish off his performance. He saw nothing but the star and the culmination of his glory.

After that assault - he flat out ignored Teague to finish out his compulsion, and that was what was most astounding about that slice of melodrama.

He returned because he was 'programmed' to do so - controlled by whatever the mix of nutcase inner forces are that render an exhibitionist invisible unless he can complete his obsessive-compulsive ritual. Like salmon swimming upstream, biologically driven to spawn in their rightful place, Owens is compelled to act out his premeditated vignettes - right down to the last eyelash flutter.

Of course he responded with RAGE when Bill dared mention the 15 yards. He has NO intention of ceasing his clownlike behavior. This man is not like other show boats. He is ILL.

The real challenge is getting thru a season without a break down...any little resistance, any thwarting of his mania, and no matter how soft the kid gloves Bill handles him with..well, the fury on the sidelines last week, in my guess, was just the warm breeze of his pathology.

 

[WV Cowboy]

Doomsday101:

Can't count the times Owens has said in interviews, "I want to help this team win."

Plus, go read Hollywood's book, "Out of Control", and tell me it was Landry's way or the highway.

I loved Hollywood, but I still don't see how Landry tolerated him as long as he did.

Most coaches do that with guys that help them win.

 

[khiladi]

As for TO I never said he was hitler but he is a loud mouth who is more concerned with TO than anything else including this team and if you don't think so then your living in a dream world.

How many pro athletes, when free agency comes around says business is business? How about Eli Manning not wanting to play for San Diego, forcing a trade to New York? Chad Johnson is a loud mouth... Loud mouth does not equate to not caring about the team.. Hey, Chad Johnson this week complained that he wasn;t being used right... but when TO says that... stop the presses...Michael Irvin was a loud mouth... I saw him yelling a couple of times at the coaches when he played...

Last time I checked, TO played in the Super Bowl injured, and gave everything he had... He also played in the Washington game with a borken hand.. on the other hand, McNabb used his injury as an excuse in the Super Bowl...

Last time I checked, that's caring about the team.... oh yeah... but he got penalized for 15 yards because of a TD celebration... heaven is falling down... that's the undeniable proof that he puts himself over the team...