Norm on KTCK 1310AM The Ticket: Roy Williams - cut him

[CowboyWay]

why wouldn't you cut him? Nobody else is going to pay half of what we'd have to pay him. He only wants to play in Texas anyway.

Cut him, and offer him a contract half of what he's making. No signing bonus either. He got that with his last contract with us.

Who else is going to step up to the plate and pay him anywhere close to what we're paying him?

 

[Randy White]

I would not say he held us back but did not contribute much. We should expect allot more from RW than what he has shown..

and you'll get NO arguments from me on that one, and I'm one of his biggest supporters. That he's been a big disappointment, in terms of the expectations we had for him, there is no doubt.

but that's VERY different than saying " he held the team back " or that some scrub who had a decent cup of coffee in KC for a couple of games produced more..

 

[Doomsday101]

Taking the one sentence out of context doesn't lessen the point. Which is simply this, there was no way he could live up to the compensation given up FOR him and given TO him.

Roy would have had to super human stats for him to rate even close to it. I think people were set up for failed expectations.

He was productive, but he could be better. Not one person in this thread is suggesting otherwise.

38 catches is not going to cut it. Even RW was disappointed in how things went this season. While he may never live up to some peoples expectations he should be expected to produce at a much higher level than 38 catches in a season.

 

[Randy White]

I think I made the point clear.

Roy Williams' lack of production and lack of effectiveness "held the team back" in 2009.

You're entitled to what " YOU think ", but not to your own facts..

 

[Randy White]

Apparantly you can't say that around here.

You could say it as many times as you wish. It doesn't mean it would not be contested.

 

[Doomsday101]

and you'll get NO arguments from me on that one, and I'm one of his biggest supporters. That he's been a big disappointment, in terms of the expectations we had for him, there is no doubt.

but that's VERY different than saying " he held the team back " or that some scrub who had a decent cup of coffee in KC for a couple of games produced more..

I agree I may not use the same words but he could have been a bigger help to the team than what he did. I tend not to blame just 1 person for a loss but we should expect more from him to help this team win games.

 

[Stash]

You're entitled to what " YOU think ", but not to your own facts..

Sorry, but when a 'starting receiver' has 38 catches for an entire season, he held the team back - that's not opinion, that's a fact.

It's also an embarrassment.

All the 'polish' in the world won't shine this one.

 

[Randy White]

Which would have been about the same contribution that the team got from the rest of its' '09 draft picks.

I see Super Hyperbole rearing his head once again.

Out of the 12 players the Cowboys drafted, 9 made the team. Out of the nine, THREE ( Jason Williams, Victor Butler, David Buehler ) contributed, 2 of them ( Victor Butler, David Buehler ) more than the 3rd, one was a difference maker ( David Buehler ).

But I sure wouldn't let that stop me from acquiring the best talent that I could.

Which is what the Cowboys did when they, in essence, traded the 20th pick of the draft for Roy Williams.

Oher would have been a nice alternative to have had during the loss to the Vikings.

Alternative to what ? You mean possing differently in the sidelines that he would have on the other 16 games ?

As I remember, he handled Jared Allen pretty well when they met this season.

Outstanding. He wouldn't have gotten that opportunity had the Cowboys drafted him.

 

[Randy White]

Sorry, but when a 'starting receiver' has 38 catches for an entire season, he held the team back - that's not opinion, that's a fact..

No, that's an OPINION, not a " fact ".

That starting receiver also had 7 TD catches, which was 2nd on the team. Did Jason Witten, who had only " two " TD catches in the entire year, 5 LESS than that same starting receiver, " held the team back " ?

 

[Stash]

I see Super Hyperbole rearing his head once again.

Out of the 12 players the Cowboys drafted, 9 made the team. Out of the nine, THREE ( Jason Williams, Victor Butler, David Buehler ) contributed, 2 of them ( Victor Butler, David Buehler ) more than the 3rd, one was a difference maker ( David Buehler ).

I see. Anything you can't logically refute gets the "hyperbole" label.

Which is what the Cowboys did when they, in essence, traded the 20th pick of the draft for Roy Williams.

38 catches on the season says otherwise.

Alternative to what ? You mean possing differently in the sidelines that he would have on the other 16 games ?

Oher played phenominally well for a rookie. He very well could have replaced Colombo when he went down instead of Doug Free. And he very likely would be replacing Flozell Adams now were he here.

Outstanding. He wouldn't have gotten that opportunity had the Cowboys drafted him.

Maybe not last season, but last I checked, teams' down draft one season at a time.

Oher would have been a much better alternative to the disappointment of Roy Williams.

You asked for an example, I gave you one.

 

[Stash]

No, that's an OPINION, not a " fact ".

That starting receiver also had 7 TD catches, which was 2nd on the team. Did Jason Witten, who had only " two " TD catches in the entire year, 5 LESS than that same starting receiver, " held the team back " ?

If TD's are the sole criteria, I guess you'd say he did.

But TD's aren't my (or many other people's) sole critieria.

If TD's are the sole criteria, how did this team ever let a TD machine like Tony Curtis get away?

But, since he's apparently a favorite of yours, keep grasping at straws to make Williams' 2009 season look less embarrassing than it truly was.

 

[dadymat]

Romo is the MAN.

fixed....

 

[TNCowboy]

He was productive, but he could be better. Not one person in this thread is suggesting otherwise.

Hardly. To have only 38 catches with the opportunities he was given is anything but productive.

 

[JohnnyHopkins]

No, that's an OPINION, not a " fact ".

That starting receiver also had 7 TD catches, which was 2nd on the team. Did Jason Witten, who had only " two " TD catches in the entire year, 5 LESS than that same starting receiver, " held the team back " ?

It is an opinion, but it is also a much easier opinion to defend than someone stating that Roy Williams performed up to expectations. The only reason Roy did not hold truly hold this team back was because he got injured and it allowed Austin to show what he could do as the number one guy. That play in Denver was probably the play of the year for this team. That is a sad statement if you are Roy Williams, who showed that he could not be the number one receiver that we gave up picks and a monster salary for.

Weird, I defended Roy most of the season, but that was actually pretty easy to admit.

 

[jackrussell]

Taking the one sentence out of context doesn't lessen the point. Which is simply this, there was no way he could live up to the compensation given up FOR him and given TO him.

Roy would have had to super human stats for him to rate even close to it. I think people were set up for failed expectations.

He was productive, but he could be better. Not one person in this thread is suggesting otherwise.

And ignoring the sentence where I say 'or at least coming somehwere near it' doesn't lessen mine. And so far, he's been nowhere remotely even close. Are we also to think that we were set up for DWare failed expectations?

I've seen this thought process stated before here about matching results to compensation. It's what people do. Through no fault of his own, Bobby Carpenter was selected in the first round, but people are sure to have expected some first round play from him.

Again. I'm pulling mightily for RW11. The window is wide open for a Cowboy's championship...and it's going to take a big contribution from him to make it happen. That's what he was brought here for. It's not asking for too much nor is it too much to expect for him to come through.

 

[MWILL]

faster than the smartest thought, stronger than the most factual argument, it's:

SUPER HYPERBOLLLLEEEEE.....!!!!

:loser: nuff said

 

[zrinkill]

Romo is the MAN...who folds in pressure games. Look it up.

Agendas are stupid .... Look it up.

 

[DallasEast]

But it has affected the quality of "reaching that stage". If they won one more game, they have homefield advantage. Two and I believ they would have eclipsed New Orleans as the #1 seed overall. Therefore Williams struggles all season long contributed.

Why are we trying to change the actual season win and loss totals? If Roy Williams must be judged on what he did and did not do during the season, why must we speculate what would have happened in the win column if he alone had been better offensively?

I'm not attempting to change anything. Roy Williams numbers are what they are. That's a fact. Williams' productivity did not make the offense more productive, explosive, etc. That's a fact. The team (including Roy Williams) won eleven games and lost five games. That's a fact. The team (including Roy Williams) qualified for the postseason. That's a fact. The team won it's wild card game. That's a fact.

Taking everything above into account, it can be said that Williams shackled the team's offensive output, but it can also be said that the offense he did generate did not prevent the team from winning 11 games (fact) and from reaching the postseason (fact). Did he prevent the team (i.e. "hold the team back") from winning 11 games? Of course not. Did he prevent the team (i.e. "hold the team back") from winning a playoff game? Of course not.

Did he "hold the team's overall offense back"? Of course, but when the season was on the line, did he hold the team back from reaching the next level?

That's speculation which hasn't been addressed. What keeps surfacing is that he was not a better wide receiver during the season. Could he have made the difference in the team being seeded second or first? Sure. Would that have improved the team's playoff chances of advancing or guaranteeing anything?

That's debatable. Dallas was the number one NFC seed in '07 with a better wide receiver in Terrell Owens. What happened then could have happened this season.

No. I will keep the speculation small. Tiny. My question is whether Roy Williams, while mightly holding the offense back all season long, held the team back from reaching the NFC Championship Game; and consequently a Super Bowl berth and/or victory.

We have become so "infuriated" over what Williams did not do as a wide receiver in '09 that we cannot acknowledge what he did not do to prevent the team from achieving its goal.

Let's flip the coin. Case in point: the Minnesota Vikings--specifically, Brett Favre. For the most part, Favre did not hold his team back from winning 13 games last season. He did not (necessarily) hold his team back from securing a number two seed in the playoffs. However, one crucial interception by him did help "hold his team back" from reaching the Super Bowl.

If a team reaches the postseason, lauding or disapproving what a player has or has not done up to the end of the regular season doesn't carry any weight for me in the "hold his team back" argument. What matters most for me is what any player does to hold his team back from getting closer to its goal. The goal is always the Super Bowl. So, for example, what a player hasn't done in Week Five of the regular season has little meaning for me as opposed to what a player does detrimentally to his team in the NFC Divisional round.

And I don't see the validity of your point.

I know.

You're trying to cram his struggles into its' effect on one particular game. I didn't see anyone try to make that point and I really don't see how it's applicable.

I have not tried to "cram his struggles into its' effect on one particular game". Of the two of us, I am not the one who has speculated how Williams could have been better offensively, and could have possibly (as a by-product) pushed the team's playoff seeding up one or two notches.

Am I right or wrong?

No, my discussion has centered on finding out how Roy Williams held his team back in 2009. 38 catches, 596 receiving yards and even seven touchdowns can garner criticism and ridicule of varying degrees, but did such hold his team back from achieving 11 wins and a playoff victory? In truth, his numbers did not. Mind you, nothing that I have stated in this paragraph is speculation. I could go there and say that he could have produced numbers which would have directly contributed to his team going undefeated or 15-1 or 14-2, but I refuse. I'm only going to maintain what actually happened.

 

[Stash]

Did he "hold the team's overall offense back"? Of course, but when the season was on the line, did he hold the team back from reaching the next level?

I'll take this portion of the response and leave it at that.

All other things aside, it looks like we agree here.

The prior comment was that Roy Williams "held the team back" and it looks like we both agree that he did.

 

[Fletch]

I am sorry but as disappointed as I have been in Roy's play.

I do not cut a guy who had a bad year and still caught 7 TD's.

It too soon.

I'm fine either way. Maybe we should see what Roy can do next season. But if the Cowboys part ways with Roy, then I'm fine with that too. But we had better be drafting a WR with at least the second pick.