1. Read the latest Dallas Cowboys news ..

PFF Gives Dak Bad Grade

Discussion in 'Fan Zone' started by PJTHEDOORS, Oct 17, 2016.

  1. mattjames2010

    mattjames2010 Well-Known Member

    18,204 Messages
    16,467 Likes Received
    Wentz in no way outperformed Dak yesterday. Wentz, for one, hardly saw the field. When he did see the field, he played average throughout. 50% completion rating, 0 TDs, less than 200 yards passing.

    You do not need PFF to tell you this, and I will say this yet again, PFF grades early in the week are beyond useless. Every fan can do what PFF did, especially for QBs.

    Wentz was average to below average yesterday. Dak, while he had some flubs, also had a lot of good/great moments. I'm someone who dislikes Wentz, but can also say he has played better than Dak for the most part the entire season. But not yesterday. PFF will most likely change their grading later in the week.
     
  2. ConceptCoop

    ConceptCoop Well-Known Member

    2,440 Messages
    1,642 Likes Received
    It wouldn't take long if they split it up. All plays are graded by two analysts, with a third to act on the differences. They then go back and re-grade flagged plays when the All-22 footage is available.
     
    MichaelWinicki likes this.
  3. JDSmith

    JDSmith Well-Known Member

    5,273 Messages
    5,680 Likes Received
    So if two guys saw it the same way on the TV they don't go back and look at it once the all-22 comes out? I find that ridiculous when trying to grade a QB because you can't see what the receivers are doing on any given play.

    Maybe I'm misunderstanding.
     
  4. MichaelWinicki

    MichaelWinicki "You want some?" Moderator

    46,548 Messages
    24,808 Likes Received
    Exactly right.

    Most are trying to equate PFF grades to the NFL passer rating system and it's two totally different animals.
     
  5. ConceptCoop

    ConceptCoop Well-Known Member

    2,440 Messages
    1,642 Likes Received
    It sounds like you're a boxscore guy and that PFF just isn't for you. They don't dig into stats, they grade each play.

    Wentz was sacked 5 times and was constantly under pressure. Unless you charted the plays, I don't put much value in your valuation. Anybody can look at the stats and say one guy played better.

    When did I make a comment on the amount of time PFF spends? It wouldn't take long to grade one player. They split the load up and it makes sense that they'd be able to get the grades done pretty quickly. There's more dead time than actual play time in football.
     
  6. ConceptCoop

    ConceptCoop Well-Known Member

    2,440 Messages
    1,642 Likes Received
    They go back and re-grade evey play that they flag, using the All-22 when it's out.

    So if an analyst says, "I need to see the All-22 on this play," they go back and re-grade the play once the All-22 is available. You'll notice that their grades vary some through the season because of this.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2016
    JDSmith likes this.
  7. AdamJT13

    AdamJT13 Salary Cap Analyst

    16,583 Messages
    4,529 Likes Received
    NFL teams user their data, but I guarantee you they don't care about PFF's player ratings. It's a completely flawed system.
     
    Alexander likes this.
  8. Lutonio

    Lutonio Well-Known Member

    1,731 Messages
    2,610 Likes Received
    Well damn. Somebody tell Dak he has to hand that W back over because his PFF grade was low.

    Better luck next time, rookie.
     
  9. ConceptCoop

    ConceptCoop Well-Known Member

    2,440 Messages
    1,642 Likes Received
    How is it completely flawed? I've heard many say it, but they either don't know what it is, or are unable to explain the flaws.
     
  10. TheRomoSexual

    TheRomoSexual Well-Known Member

    3,926 Messages
    4,639 Likes Received
    Again, I didn't look at the stats -- I watched each player play. I didn't "chart" the plays, but the fact that you think a couple of nerds subjectively "charting" each play is somehow a flawless system is hilarious.
     
  11. TheRomoSexual

    TheRomoSexual Well-Known Member

    3,926 Messages
    4,639 Likes Received
    A overly detail oriented system based on subjective analysis is inherently flawed.
     
  12. ConceptCoop

    ConceptCoop Well-Known Member

    2,440 Messages
    1,642 Likes Received
    Who said it was flawless? It's very flawed, as is any system that tries to put a numeric value on something as complex as a football play. But it has value.
     
  13. ConceptCoop

    ConceptCoop Well-Known Member

    2,440 Messages
    1,642 Likes Received
    Overly detailed? It's pretty clear that you have little to no idea what PFF's player grade is.
     
  14. TheRomoSexual

    TheRomoSexual Well-Known Member

    3,926 Messages
    4,639 Likes Received
    You're killing me smalls. Each play is analyzed based on a -2 to 2 scale and later normalized. In other words, it's a purely subjective analysis that relies on many small subjective decisions that they then compute into a normalized number to provide the guise of statistical analysis. Yes, it's a terribly flawed approach.
     
  15. AdamJT13

    AdamJT13 Salary Cap Analyst

    16,583 Messages
    4,529 Likes Received
    The method of rating is flawed. The weighting of the factors is seriously flawed. And the people doing the rating have no expertise and don't know what each player's responsibility is on each play. GIGO. (Never mind that it's a cumulative rating, which is inherently flawed.)

    The raw data, on the other hand, is helpful because it provides information that teams would otherwise have to compile themselves. (Even that information is not perfect, but it is helpful.)
     
    JDSmith likes this.
  16. JDSmith

    JDSmith Well-Known Member

    5,273 Messages
    5,680 Likes Received
    I'll address one area that I think it's completely flawed, and maybe you can explain why it's not.

    PFF had the Giants offensive line ranked as third best in the NFL. They had the Cowboys line sixth best in the NFL. The Giants as a team have been completely unable to run all season. Their pass blocking has been anywhere from average to poor. It appears that the PFF grade is artificially inflated because the Giants offensive scheme has Eli throwing the ball quicker than any other QB in the NFL - in part because they don't trust the pass protection. So his average from snap to throw is quicker than anyone else (at least per Giants fans who care about such things). I'd say it stands to reason that if an offensive lineman who only has to block for an average of 2.5 seconds will look better than another who has to block for 3.5 seconds.

    The same thing can be applied to CBs, how hard is it to cover for 2.5 seconds as opposed to 3.5? If a team has a great pass rush their CBs will have higher grades on PFF, whether they are actually better or not.

    Now it's possible I don't understand the system and that stuff is accounted for. But it seems that between those examples and not knowing the assignments of the players they are grading, PFF has some serious flaws.
     
  17. ConceptCoop

    ConceptCoop Well-Known Member

    2,440 Messages
    1,642 Likes Received
    You make a coule valid points. We don't know who the analysts are, and they don't know the responsibility of each player on each specific play. Based on the output, however, I trust that they know enough to be of value to me, and are capable of making reasonable assignment assumptions.

    GIGO? Nah.

    What would be better than a cumulative rating?

    Lastly, do you have a better system for their aim? The aim is very ambitious and no system could ever be perfect. There's still value there, however. For what it does, it's clearly the standard. There's simply nowhere else to go for this kind of data. When the alternative is message board posters using raw stats and eye tests (from a couple games a week) - it's clearly more valuable than our collective opinion.
     
  18. percyhoward

    percyhoward Research Tool

    17,061 Messages
    21,853 Likes Received
    A bad grade from PFF means he's officially arrived.
     
  19. Vtwin

    Vtwin Power and Performance

    3,816 Messages
    2,779 Likes Received
    Romo himself said he made the decision based on what he saw pre-snap. He read it correctly and made the play. The correct play which you can see for yourself by watching it again.

    We haven't seen Dak in a situation like that yet.
     
  20. ConceptCoop

    ConceptCoop Well-Known Member

    2,440 Messages
    1,642 Likes Received
    Based on my understanding, you're 100% right. You've identified major flaws with their system. But we have to understand (and appreciate) that any system trying to do what they're doing is going to be majorly flawed. It's still a context that we wouldn't have had otherwise. It's the only system I'm aware of that adds any non-boxscore context. I don't take it as gospel, and I don't think they intend it to be taken as such.
     
    JDSmith likes this.

Share This Page