Still juiced about Deuce

_sturt_

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Not big and strong enough for an NFL RB. Sorry.
... and then you go on, pretty much, just to repeat the same objections that have long ago been debunked in this thread.

Sorry.

The actual substance... the actual lines of reason and peel-the-onion-back facts... sit on this side of this debate.

Sproles thrived in this league. There is no reason this kid shouldn't be that, and perhaps even more actually.
 

_sturt_

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Yards After Contact 2023
0.9 Deuce
1.0 Luepke
2.0 Pollard
2.1 Dowdle

Looking at the stats across the league, Pollard and Dowdle are bottom half YAC of the league's regular ball carries.
Deuce is far off the map.

And our new/old (in more ways that one) starting RB?
1.9

Ready for that trade yet, Dak?
Answered already multiple times, your honor.

Debunk the answer, or be content to be disregarded on this topic. (It's been said multiple times in this thread... but I'm loathe to continue to repeat it, and in doing so, humor the ignorance implicit with the resurrection of the assertion over again.)
 

McKDaddy

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I'm proposing that the way to use him is as simple as giving him a legitimate O-line to run behind.
I'm not disagreeing with you but it does call into question the honors this Oline was given. Especially when we have 1 OL in particular that is hailed as one of the best ever yet we have no running lanes. Odd.
 

_sturt_

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I'm not disagreeing with you but it does call into question the honors this Oline was given. Especially when we have 1 OL in particular that is hailed as one of the best ever yet we have no running lanes. Odd.
No. Please hear this.

He didn't get to run behind that line.

Deuce was only in there for mop-up duty... at times when they were running out the clock, and there was no question about the game's outcome... so the O-line in front of him were also back-ups, and the opposition knew what was coming... running plays so that the clock would wind down and everyone could go home.

Natural follow-up: "Well why was he only in there for those times?"

Answered...


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_sturt_

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@Cowboys5217... I should have added...

To be fair... and I have been... I've stated this explicitly... no, you probably have better options on 3rd and 2. He is too light for that, absolutely, no question.

But, on 3rd and 6, he's an excellent option in the flat. He does break tackles, contrary to what's been said. Just watch the tape. And he's hard for the bad guys to even get their hands on.... difficult to square him up.
 

KJJ

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Wasn't referring to the OP. Was referring, somewhat obviously (?), to the post that addressed directly your concerns. So, yes, there's a video. And. I posted about the logic behind what we should be able to safely take from the video from his senior year against upper tier competition. But I get it. You're dug in. It's not so much for you as it is for those who let substance affect their conclusions.

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I’m dug in that he’s too small to play RB in the NFL. He’s too small to be an effective blocker and the only special teams he plays is as a returner. Our RB situation is so bleak we may have no choice but to use him in the rotation. Zeke is close to being washed up if he isn’t already and we didn’t draft an RB so he’ll be given a chance.
 

_sturt_

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Stop repeating conclusions based on surface assessments that have been answered. Please.

Obviously, Vaughn is small. Obviously, he's not going to be anyone you can ask to block.

Sproles... also not an effective blocker... essentially the same size... had a thriving career.

If Vaughn is too small to play RB in the NFL, you have to explain why Sproles could, but Vaughn cannot. I don't think you have an answer for that, but that's okay... I don't think anyone has an answer for that.
 

KingintheNorth

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Sproles was stronger, heavier and faster. And before you try, Deuce's 40 time was "self-reported".

They are both short and they both went to Kansas State. That's the end of the comparison.
 

Pokes12

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I am on board the Deuce Caboose. Deuce did not get the amount of touches he should have last year, nor the quality amount of touches -

YouTuber “DoubleMove” pointed out last year against the Patriots, Deuce had 8 rushing attempts for 9 yards. However, he had 12 yards after contact that game.

The run blocking has to get better for Deuce to succeed.

Interestingly, in two years rushing behind a Kansas State offensive line that included future NFL Hall of Famer Cooper Beebe, Deuce had 528 carries for 2,962 yards for 27 TDs. He had a career 5.5 ypc. He caught 100+ passes for 1,280 yards. Simply put, he was tearing up top-ranked programs regularly.

I still believe. I don’t believe the traits that made Deuce a special player suddenly disappeared when he was drafted into the NFL.
How can it be that he rushed for a total of 9 yards but he had 12 yards after contact? Did he have a bunch of runs for losses?
 

_sturt_

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Sproles was stronger, heavier and faster. And before you try, Deuce's 40 time was "self-reported".
Stronger... source?

Heavier... yes.

Faster... source?

(IIRC, Deuce's pre-draft stats were from the K-State pro day.)


They are both short and they both went to Kansas State. That's the end of the comparison.
So, in your God-honest opinion, one could shimmy and juke others out of their cleats.... only one... and which one then would you assign that attribute?

So, in your God-honest opinion, one could accelerate and get to top speed so much faster than the other, that there is no comparison to be made... only one... and which one then would you say that about?


Because if you can't answer those questions God-honestly, who are we kidding.

How can it be that he rushed for a total of 9 yards but he had 12 yards after contact? Did he have a bunch of runs for losses?
No offense, but in 6 pages, that question has been posed and answered... it's not really that complicated... maybe 10x by now. In fact, on this very page.
 

tm1119

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Deuce would be playing in the fan controlled league (or whatever it’s called) if it wasn’t for his father working for the Cowboys. Fully expect him to be on the PS all year.

*in before this weird dude with a strange obsession for Deuce angrily quotes me
 

KingintheNorth

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Stronger... source?

Heavier... yes.

Faster... source?

(IIRC, Deuce's pre-draft stats were from the K-State pro day.)
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nf...ys-rbs-speed-with-ezekiel-elliott/ar-AA1eSBa1

"At the draft combine, he didn't do the 40-yard dash, but Deuce Vaughn's self-reported time was 4.44, which is only slightly quicker than Elliott's, but quicker nonetheless.

There have also been reports that Deuce ran a 4.46 40-yard dash at his Pro Day, so fans can make up their mind about which one they believe. (Notice nothing about scouts or the school reporting his time)."

Sproles had 23 reps, Deuce had 17.

Anything else?
 

_sturt_

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"At the draft combine, he didn't do the 40-yard dash, but Deuce Vaughn's self-reported time was 4.44, which is only slightly quicker than Elliott's, but quicker nonetheless.

(I was not aware that there even was such a thing as a self-reported time that anyone would ever write about... so thanks for that. But I still don't care about self-reported times any more than you suggest you do. Agreed?)

There have also been reports that Deuce ran a 4.46 40-yard dash at his Pro Day
I'm going to do for your preferred conclusion what any God-honest assessor would do.

I'm finding that that's wrong... the number that I'm finding is 4.56.

Sproles? 4.47.

So there's that. Sproles did have a speed advantage evidently.

Sproles had 23 reps, Deuce had 17.
Confirmed.

Anything else?
So, in your God-honest opinion, one could shimmy and juke others out of their cleats.... only one... and which one then would you assign that attribute?

So, in your God-honest opinion, one could accelerate and get to top speed so much faster than the other, that there is no comparison to be made... only one... and which one then would you say that about?


Because if you can't answer those questions God-honestly, who are we kidding.
Both were/are at a decided disadvantage in terms of body size and strength... so that Sproles was appx. 10 lbs heavier and had stronger biceps is of limited interest... I don't see that making any real difference.

Both were/are at a decided advantage based on their overall escape-ability, and difficulty to square-up to tackle. And there's no quantitative way of measuring "vision," but watching the tape and how Vaughn sets up his blockers, and runs to daylight... and how typical it is that scouts would write about his vision... I feel pretty confident that Vaughn doesn't give up anything to Sproles in that department, but again, no real way to measure that one. On the other hand, given today's capacity for using tape to assess a variety of talents/skills, I'm inclined to think we conceivably could compare the two in terms of acceleration, but just conceivably. I'm not aware that anyone has actually done that.

But there's wide acknowledgement that making others miss was Sproles' calling card. That is Vaughn's calling card, somewhat obviously.

Kudos to you, you did find one possible way in which Sproles might have been superior by almost a 1/10 second... not insignificant (assuming that that 4.56 wasn't hobbled by illness).

But I would just tie the bow this way... still... to what degree does speed really matter when you're not even able to get out of the backfield due to the opposition knowing you're running out the clock? Could I be giving Vaughn too much credit? Maybe but I really don't think I am... we saw him in preseason do Deuce things on occasion... and you know I'm not lying, he really and truly had zero or almost zero touches in regular season behind the first string line and at a consequential time in a game. Could you be underestimating Vaughn? Suffice it to say I'm confident that the preseason and the new RB-by-committee approach is going to allow for a much higher confidence conclusion, assuming Deuce stays healthy.
 

calicowboy54

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Deuce being small is his strength.
Yes he can Hide behind the line, but once someone gets a hold of him he's going down easy. Most of the time with 1 arm. i need to see more Barry Sanders Spin moves instead of putting the head down and running in to someone
 

_sturt_

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It's frustrating, but this thread is serving its purpose.

The people who have watched the tape of both his college and very very limited NFL snaps are posting what people who've done that can do... post informed conclusions grounded in what has actually happened on the field.

And those, in answer to others' conclusions pivoted solely on reading numbers... dry NFL numbers, paired with presumptions that naturally would occur from looking at physical numbers.

And that, ignoring some of the major headings in their Research Methods 501 textbook regarding internal validity... in particular, the "small sample sizes" part.

Easy, surface-level conclusions, disinterested in looking under the hood.



Again...
Suffice it to say I'm confident that the preseason and the new RB-by-committee approach is going to allow for a much higher confidence conclusion, assuming Deuce stays healthy.
 

buybuydandavis

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... and then you go on, pretty much, just to repeat the same objections that have long ago been debunked in this thread.

Sorry.

The actual substance... the actual lines of reason and peel-the-onion-back facts... sit on this side of this debate.

Sproles thrived in this league. There is no reason this kid shouldn't be that, and perhaps even more actually.
"Darren Sproles existed, therefore size and strength just don't matter in the NFL. Everyone 5-6 can be Darren Sproles. "
Is that the debunking you're referring to?
I'd note that PFR has Sproles at 190 and Deuce at 176. 14 lbs of muscle don't matter in the NFL?
 
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