Who's Laughing at Travis Frederick Now?

[cmoney23]

Actually, what he said makes sense. If a car costs $10,000, you don't pay $25,000 for it even though you know it may appreciate in value to $150,000.

But the caveat is that none of us knows whether Frederick was going to be there. So it's silly calling people out because it's possible had we waited, we could have missed him. It's possible we could have gotten him even in the second round.

Nobody knows.

 

[conner01]

I will still and will always say it was a serious reach...

If you buy a car worth 15k dollars for 25k dollars and it runs great and runs for 10 years... you still paid 10k to much for it.

yes, we should have waited for someone else to draft him so you could bash jerry for not taking a player who helps the team. remember max unger, some thought he would fall but guess what, he did'nt and the best center in the draft is not falling as far as some seem to think

 

[Plankton]

At this point, I'm just happy to have a real anchor in the middle, and a guy who is underrated league wide. Frederick was a terrific pick. I thought it was early on draft night, but, I can admit that I was wrong about that. You compare his selection, believed to be early by many, myself included, with Morris Claiborne, who was believed to be one of the top players in 2012, and which one would you want to have back?

Fear the beard.

 

[MikeBou]

From what I recall the Ravens were going to use a high first on him...

Yes their center born retired and his backup was rehabbing a knee injury. They said after the draft that they were going to take him with their 1st. The centers name was born

 

[conner01]

There where 5 Centers drafted TOTAL that year. Out of 250 some players! The next one came off the board at like Pick 100!!! I think it safe to say he would have lasted another, what 16 picks!!!

Its a Center!

the best center in the draft. there are players from every position taken in the 7th rnd. but you don't get the best player at any position in the 7th rnd. not even punters

 

[BBQ101]

By saying that Travis was worth a first round pick because he is playing well now, is like saying we should have drafted Romo in the first because he is such a good player. Even though, coming out of college, Tony wasn't deserving of a first round or any draft pick!

He goes back to market value and projection.

But many people don't agree with your stated market value. As viman above said, market value changes as the draft changes. And anyway, we already have quotes from others stating he would have been taken a few picks later. I think you main point is wrong. in that his market value was lower.

Even if you agree with your market value which you based off of public sources, it should be pretty obvious right now that they were wrong.
1) He was drafted higher than they projected
2) His play has been worthy or where he was drafted.

BBQ

 

[cmoney23]

Oh look, someone took Finance 101 and now thinks they can morph it to back up their ridiculous opinion on a football player. You go boy.

Market Value is irrelevant except for establishing a baseline. If the ROI on capital is worth it, you take it all day erry day.

In this instance, it looks like Dallas did a fantastic job at evaluating an investment.

But your ROI is higher if you buy lower.... Give me Freddy in the Second and I'd be paying capital gains right now!

 

[khiladi]

Thank Jerry for ignoring Floyd, per Marinelli and Kiffin, and going Frederik... Thank Bill Callahan for the development and connections to Wisconsin.

Callahan served a two-year stint, 1987–1988, as offensive line coach at Northern Arizona University and one year as offensive coordinator of Southern Illinois in 1989. From 1990–1994, Callahan was offensive line coach at the University of Wisconsin–Madison. He has been praised by former Wisconsin coach Barry Alvarez as being one of the primary reasons why the Badgers were able to turn their program around and eventually win three Rose Bowls in the 1990s. Alvarez cited Callahan specifically for his strong recruiting abilities.

 

[cmoney23]

But many people don't agree with your stated market value. As viman above said, market value changes as the draft changes. And anyway, we already have quotes from others stating he would have been taken a few picks later. I think you main point is wrong. in that his market value was lower.

Even if you agree with your market value which you based off of public sources, it should be pretty obvious right now that they were wrong.
1) He was drafted higher than they projected
2) His play has been worthy or where he was drafted.

BBQ

And many "draft experts" and Scouts do... so at this point it is all mute. But it all goes back to my original post... I don't now and won't ever say he was worth that pick.

 

[dogunwo]

And many "draft experts" and Scouts do... so at this point it is all mute. But it all goes back to my original post... I don't now and won't ever say he was worth that pick.

Stubborn mule

 

[BBQ101]

And many "draft experts" and Scouts do... so at this point it is all mute. But it all goes back to my original post... I don't now and won't ever say he was worth that pick.

Which is why we are all so confused. Hindsight baby!

BBQ

 

[cmoney23]

Stubborn mule

When you're right... You're right. Sorry.

 

[Outlaw Heroes]

I will still and will always say it was a serious reach...

If you buy a car worth 15k dollars for 25k dollars and it runs great and runs for 10 years... you still paid 10k to much for it.

I think all you mean when you say "it was a serious reach" is that you believe that no other team would have taken him (anywhere near) where the Cowboys did. Let's say for the moment that you're right about that (even though there were rumors that Baltimore was prepared to take him with the very next pick). If I understand you (and Tyke) correctly, it follows in your view that, regardless of what kind of career Frederick has -- even if he makes the Hall of Fame -- the pick was a mistake, at least from the perspective of having overpaid.

The problem I have with your logic is that it collapses the concepts of cost and value. In other words, on your logic, if a team pays the right cost (i.e. not more than the cost other teams would have paid) it got good value. If it pays too high a cost, relative to what others might have paid, it got bad value. Your logic has no time for concerns regarding whether others are paying $25k for lemons or turning down gems that run great and last for ten years but cost only $15k. In fact, on your logic, whether or not a purchase is good value can be determined the second you make your purchase without even knowing how the car runs: just look at whether you paid more than what others might have paid.

Among the queer results produced by such logic are that Ryan Leaf and Tony Mandarich were good value at #2 overall (the Chargers and Packers paid no more than what other teams would have paid for those guys) and that Tom Brady was not, after all, underdrafted (as Tyke brazenly asserts). Such results are so bizarre that they should alert you to the fact that there's something off with your logic.

What you've overlooked is that, at the end of the day, other teams are slotting guys on their boards based upon an educated projection of the types of careers those players will have. A player is thought to have first round value, for example, because he is a projected immediate starter with the potential to be among the better players in the league at his position. The soundness of that evaluation (and the underlying projection) is ultimately not to be determined by whether other teams agree with it but by whether the player does in fact become an immediate starter and/or one of the better players in the league at his position. What other teams think of the player is largely irrelevant to determining his ultimate value, since other teams are just as capable of misjudging (which is what the Leaf, Mandarich and Brady examples highlight).

To argue otherwise is to become a draft sceptic -- someone who knows the cost of every player drafted but the value of none of them -- by allowing any concept of value, independent of "market" price (what others are willing to pay), to drop away entirely.

 

[khiladi]

http://www.dallascowboys.com/news/a...-Coaches/e71ef653-ffca-40df-9dd3-c8d3d8a41b65

The Cowboys’ offensive linemen can see the difference Bill Callahan’s making with additional time to teach the group.
Center Travis Frederick doesn’t believe the run game has changed dramatically in what it’s trying to accomplish, but he believes the biggest different to the running game is the amount of time Callahan can spend with the offensive line this year.

Callahan no longer has to call the plays, allowing him more time to do what he was originally brought in to do.

“He’s been an integral part in the success of the running game,” Frederick said. “It’s been over the course, from what I can tell, over the last two years, he and coach (Frank) Pollack both. I definitely want to throw Coach Pollack in there, because they work together to set up a lot of the run game and work with us as an offensive line very equally.”

Guard Zack Martin said Callahan’s attention to detail has helped that happen. From footwork to hand placement to quickness, Callahan goes over everything meticulously.

“He’s very specific,” Martin said. “What I love about what he does is we film everything. We film every little drill, everything during practice is filmed. We get to look at everything. It’s great because you’re getting evaluated and you can see what you’re doing every rep. You’re going full go every rep. Being that specific has paid off.”

 

[benson]

Loving all the couch financial analysts and GM's coming out full-force in this thread. You are not apart of the Cowboys organization, you do not know where the coaches placed value, you don't know what the staff was willing to risk. You wanted them to take a WR over a C because the WR was ranked higher, even though a WR would do nothing for the team? You wanted them to take a d-lineman that may have been a BUST, just because they were ranked higher? They "reached" based on the need of the team (actually not a reach because the Ravens would have taken him) and it payed off HUGE. Hindsight worked in our favor, the correct gamble was made.

You can bet the 31 teams that passed on Brady 5 times probably wished they "reached" with a 4th on him instead of waiting for him to fall to them in the 7th.

 

[khiladi]

Loving all the couch financial analysts and GM's coming out full-force in this thread. You are not apart of the Cowboys organization, you do not know where the coaches placed value, you don't know what the staff was willing to risk. You wanted them to take a WR over a C because the WR was ranked higher, even though a WR would do nothing for the team? You wanted them to take a d-lineman that may have been a BUST, just because they were ranked higher? They "reached" based on the need of the team (actually not a reach because the Ravens would have taken him) and it payed off HUGE. Hindsight worked in our favor, the correct gamble was made.

You can bet the 31 teams that passed on Brady 5 times probably wished they "reached" with a 4th on him instead of waiting for him to fall to them in the 7th.

http://www.***BANNED-URL***/sports/...an-do-to-avoid-2013-s-draft-day-confusion.ece

Stephen Jones already admitted they were set on getting Floyd and essentially confused when Jerry went Frederik. The HC has said defense was the problem and the last two years, they were targetting defense in particular. Floyd was suppose to be drafted in 2013 and Dallas had 3 guys as BPAs ahead of Zach that they were set on getting per Jerry. Their draft philosophy has been BPA and they've stated it multiple times. Building the team from OL wasn't their intention nor was it part of the 'process'.

 

[cmoney23]

I think all you mean when you say "it was a serious reach" is that you believe that no other team would have taken him (anywhere near) where the Cowboys did. Let's say for the moment that you're right about that (even though there were rumors that Baltimore was prepared to take him with the very next pick). If I understand you (and Tyke) correctly, it follows in your view that, regardless of what kind of career Frederick has -- even if he makes the Hall of Fame -- the pick was a mistake, at least from the perspective of having overpaid.

Correct.

In fact, on your logic, whether or not a purchase is good value can be determined the second you make your purchase without even knowing how the car runs: just look at whether you paid more than what others might have paid.

When speaking to something like a car or talent, if your research is done correctly and you are inline with your peers then you are correct. No matter the outcome.

Among the queer results produced by such logic are that Ryan Leaf and Tony Mandarich were good value at #2 overall (the Chargers and Packers paid no more than what other teams would have paid for those guys) and that Tom Brady was not, after all, underdrafted (as Tyke brazenly asserts). Such results are so bizarre that they should alert you to the fact that there's something off with your logic.

Anomalies do exist... true... but in these cases you are trying to measure spirit/ heart/ un-tangibles. But if you where to have draft Tom Brady Number one overall, not only would he be a Non story, he would have been the biggest reach in the Leagues history... and probably wouldn't have the same career he enjoys today.

 

[AsthmaField]

I will still and will always say it was a serious reach...

If you buy a car worth 15k dollars for 25k dollars and it runs great and runs for 10 years... you still paid 10k to much for it.

You are correct in saying that Frederick might could have been picked a little later, but that isn't a good analogy, IMO.

If you buy a car worth 15K, then it will never be worth more than 15K. Ever. At best you end up with a long lasting car that originally was worth 15K. Even at peak performance, it is still a 15K car.

You would need to say that you buy a car that some thought was a Kia worth 15K and you paid 25K... and then everyone realized that it really wasn't a Kia at all, but was instead a BMW that was really worth 100,000K. It would have to be a car that could compete with the best.

Of course, using car value at all as an analogy for players in the NFL draft is ill advised, period.

What you had was a guy that was looked at as a late first round player because of the position he played and because of how well he played at Wisconsin. Then, after the combine and his slow 40 time, his stock dropped into what realistically was the second round.

As with most good football players who run poorly at the combine, Frederick's stock began to climb up some because team's start paying a lot of attention to what they did in college as you get further from the madness of the combine and closer to the draft.

Frederick was the best center in the draft by a wide margin. Those typically don't slide further than the mid to late second round, so I don't think it could be realistically said that he would last any longer than that. Wisconsin consistently puts out O Linemen that perform exceptionally well in the NFL, and he had played well for a long time at UW.

The strength of the 2013 draft was along the OL and teams were grabbing them up at a torrid pace. When NY took Justin Pugh at 19 and Chicago took Kyle Long at 20 (the 8th OL already taken), you know those guys are going early and often.

Dallas saw nobody worth the 16th pick to them, so they took the best trade back deal offered and gave #16 to SF, who took Reid.

At pick #31 where they traded to, the only interior OL that they really liked there was Frederick, who Bill Callahan really, really liked a lot. Johnathan Cyprien and Matt Elam were there but Garrett has been insistent on building the trenches, so I don't think they were ever realistic candidates to be taken over Frederick.

There were plenty of rumors that said that Baltimore wanted Frederick at #32, and I don't find that an outrageous theory. They needed a C and Frederick was clearly the best in that draft. Plus, he is a Raven type of guy.

The only decent players that were taken between Frederick and our pick in the second of Escobar was Gio Bernard, Kawaan Short, and Kiko Alonso. It was a pretty weak draft and there wasn't really a whole lot of guys that Dallas could have taken that would have been a better fit at a bigger need than Frederick.

The point is, regardless of where draft guru's had Frederick ranked - and they only had him ranked below the first round because he ran a poor 40 - he was most assuredly the best guy they could have taken. Particularly with a coach and a fan base that wants help in the trenches more than any where else.

You can't logically say that he would have been there in the mid-second, and he was the best at a position of need for Dallas. It was the right pick, mock draft value be damned.

Of course that is without even bringing up that they got a free 3rd round pick and got a very good WR there who is also a starter in his second season and leading the team in receiving TD's.

With the particularly potent ability of 20/20 hindsight, the trade and the pick of Frederick can't be looked at as anything other than a home run for Dallas.

 

[cmoney23]

You can bet the 31 teams that passed on Brady 5 times probably wished they "reached" with a 4th on him instead of waiting for him to fall to them in the 7th.

you are trying to make the exception the rule... Tom Brady is the Exception...

 

[benson]

http://www.***BANNED-URL***/sports/...an-do-to-avoid-2013-s-draft-day-confusion.ece

Stephen Jones already admitted they were set on getting Floyd and essentially confused when Jerry went Frederik. The HC has said defense was the problem and the last two years, they were targetting defense in particular. Floyd was suppose to be drafted in 2013 and Dallas had 3 guys as BPAs ahead of Zach that they were set on getting per Jerry. Their draft philosophy has been BPA and they've stated it multiple times. Building the team from OL wasn't their intention nor was it part of the 'process'.

Damn, well then it makes it even twice as impressive. Hitting on a reach, but not just any reach, a reach picked randomly out of hundreds of players.