Zim has to go

[bbgun]

A lot more of this, please.

 

[khiladi]

Dallas didn't need to sack Delhomme to shut down Carolina. The Panthers really did nothing against the Cowboys defense and that is without sacking Jake. Dallas did pressure him though and force several errant throws throughout the game.

Keyshawn Johnson dropped a SURE touchdown in the third quarter. And people forget Steve Smith dropped an intermediate slant that was sure to net well over thirty plus, if not a touchdown against our defense. The reason our numbers were so high is because of SPECIAL TEAMS forcing the turn-overs.

 

[joseephuss]

A lot more of this, please.

That would be nice, but none of the down lineman have that kind of talent. Guys like Spears, Canty and Ferguson are good lineman, but they aren't pressure guys. They need to step up their games and win some one on one match ups. That would do more than any type of schemes.

 

[Doomsday101]

There is no doubt Dallas needs to do a better job of getting pressure but all in all this is not a bad defense. Dallas ranks high in ints with 10 and 9 forced fumbles only 3 other teams have more take aways than Dallas. There is clearly room for improvement but this D is not as bad as some are trying to claim around here.

 

[joseephuss]

Keyshawn Johnson dropped a SURE touchdown in the third quarter. And people forget Steve Smith dropped an intermediate slant that was sure to net well over thirty plus, if not a touchdown against our defense. The reason our numbers were so high is because of SPECIAL TEAMS forcing the turn-overs.

It wasn't a sure TD. Henry would have tackled him. Dropped passes are part of the game. Dallas shut down Carolina.

 

[khiladi]

It wasn't a sure TD. Henry would have tackled him. Dropped passes are part of the game. Dallas shut down Carolina.

Henry was falling on the ground... was he going to get up and catch Keyshawn, who had at most 20 yards to run?

We did NOT shut-down Carolina. We BEAT Carolina. We were toe-to-toe with Carolina until the fourth quarter. It was because of the big plays on special teams that we won.

 

[dbair1967]

well I guess we can all agree to disagree...like someone else said, you can quote all the stats you want and play the spin doctor games on it, but anyone with an ojective eye can tell that 1) we have no pass rush whatsoever, and havent the entire time Zimmer has been DC 2) we have blown alot of 4th qtr leads under Zimmers stay, not just with Parcells, but also under Campo 3) we always finish in the bottom half of the league in impact plays...sacks, turnovers, tackles for loss

our defense is average...its not horrible but its definitely not "great" and in most people opinion probably wouldnt even qualify as "good"...its average

and IMO with the talent this defense has and whats been invested in it, it should be more than average...it should be a defense capable of shutting teams down, closing out games, putting consistent heat on opposing QB's and at least knocking them down occasionally and being at or near the top in impact plays...the talent is there, but the results are not

we can all revisit this in a month or so...at that time we'll have faced Indy, NYG again, New Orleans Atlanta and Philly again...

David

 

[dbair1967]

Actually, they don't. See my previous post.




We forced Jacksonville to punt when they started at our 33. We forced Philadelphia to kick a field goal when they started at our 14. We forced the Giants to turn the ball over when they started at our 38.

spin away Adam...but we played lousy defense against Jacksonville, Philly and the NYG

David

 

[Doomsday101]

well I guess we can all agree to disagree...like someone else said, you can quote all the stats you want and play the spin doctor games on it, but anyone with an ojective eye can tell that 1) we have no pass rush whatsoever, and havent the entire time Zimmer has been DC 2) we have blown alot of 4th qtr leads under Zimmers stay, not just with Parcells, but also under Campo 3) we always finish in the bottom half of the league in impact plays...sacks, turnovers, tackles for loss

our defense is average...its not horrible but its definitely not "great" and in most people opinion probably wouldnt even qualify as "good"...its average

and IMO with the talent this defense has and whats been invested in it, it should be more than average...it should be a defense capable of shutting teams down, closing out games, putting consistent heat on opposing QB's and at least knocking them down occasionally and being at or near the top in impact plays...the talent is there, but the results are not

we can all revisit this in a month or so...at that time we'll have faced Indy, NYG again, New Orleans Atlanta and Philly again...

David

Dallas ranks 4th in take aways no matter how you spin it. I agree we need to do better at getting sacks but sacks are not the tell all about any defense.

 

[Cowboy4ever]

That would be nice, but none of the down lineman have that kind of talent. Guys like Spears, Canty and Ferguson are good lineman, but they aren't pressure guys. They need to step up their games and win some one on one match ups. That would do more than any type of schemes.

I don't know if that is a fair statement. I will give you Fergy,, but not the other two. They are not asked to put pressure on the QB,, they are there to help stop the run.. now, it is very hard to go from Run Defense to Pass defense.. its two different skill sets..with different Techniques. Now this week,, I would tell them to tackle the runner on the way to the QB,, I would not even worry about the run,, just pass rush, every play.. I think they have the skills do what we want, but playing within he scheme, does not allow them to be the pass rushing force they could be.. IMO.

 

[joseephuss]

well I guess we can all agree to disagree...like someone else said, you can quote all the stats you want and play the spin doctor games on it, but anyone with an ojective eye can tell that 1) we have no pass rush whatsoever, and havent the entire time Zimmer has been DC 2) we have blown alot of 4th qtr leads under Zimmers stay, not just with Parcells, but also under Campo 3) we always finish in the bottom half of the league in impact plays...sacks, turnovers, tackles for loss

our defense is average...its not horrible but its definitely not "great" and in most people opinion probably wouldnt even qualify as "good"...its average

and IMO with the talent this defense has and whats been invested in it, it should be more than average...it should be a defense capable of shutting teams down, closing out games, putting consistent heat on opposing QB's and at least knocking them down occasionally and being at or near the top in impact plays...the talent is there, but the results are not

we can all revisit this in a month or so...at that time we'll have faced Indy, NYG again, New Orleans Atlanta and Philly again...

David

Which is it?

You blame Zimmer because you say he now has the talent for this team to be great. You criticize Zimmer for the defense when Campo was coach and we know there was very little talent on those teams.

They have forced turnovers in every game this year and are near the top in forcing turnovers. Mention that and you say people shouldn't rely on stats, yet you say you want turnovers or "impact plays".

It is a good defense. It is not average. It is not great either. A more consistent pass rush would elevate the defense to near greatness. Everyone will agree with that, but it is a good defense.

 

[joseephuss]

I don't know if that is a fair statement. I will give you Fergy,, but not the other two. They are not asked to put pressure on the QB,, they are there to help stop the run.. now, it is very hard to go from Run Defense to Pass defense.. its two different skill sets..with different Techniques. Now this week,, I would tell them to tackle the runner on the way to the QB,, I would not even worry about the run,, just pass rush, every play.. I think they have the skills do what we want, but playing within he scheme, does not allow them to be the pass rushing force they could be.. IMO.

I judge them notso much in the base defense, but in obvious pass rushing situations. There is a reason they are taken out of the game when the team goes to a nickle package. Dallas wants to get pass rushers in the game. If they were better pass rushers, they would also get to the QB a little more while still in the base scheme. They don't need to produce large sack numbers either, just be more of a force. I think that is what Bill is getting at whenever he calls out Canty. He can be more of a force.

 

[Stautner]

I don't know if that is a fair statement. I will give you Fergy,, but not the other two. They are not asked to put pressure on the QB,, they are there to help stop the run.. now, it is very hard to go from Run Defense to Pass defense.. its two different skill sets..with different Techniques. Now this week,, I would tell them to tackle the runner on the way to the QB,, I would not even worry about the run,, just pass rush, every play.. I think they have the skills do what we want, but playing within he scheme, does not allow them to be the pass rushing force they could be.. IMO.

This is only a half truth.

This notion that our D-lineman have NO pass rush responsibility in this defense and are not asked to put pressure on the QB is bogus.

They are asked to play run first on run downs, but once they read pass they are expected to collapse the pocket, and, if possible, get to the QB. Granted that doesn't allow for them to be pass rushing demons, but it does allow them to pressure the QB and get ocassional sacks - IF they are capable. As for clear passing downs (3rd and long - maybe 8 yards or more) they CAN get a little more agressive - we aren't telling them not to pressure the QB.

How some got the idea that we are the only team that has to read run or pass then react accordingly is beyond me.

 

[Doomsday101]

Which is it?

You blame Zimmer because you say he now has the talent for this team to be great. You criticize Zimmer for the defense when Campo was coach and we know there was very little talent on those teams.

They have forced turnovers in every game this year and are near the top in forcing turnovers. Mention that and you say people shouldn't rely on stats, yet you say you want turnovers or "impact plays".

It is a good defense. It is not average. It is not great either. A more consistent pass rush would elevate the defense to near greatness. Everyone will agree with that, but it is a good defense.

Good post. Dallas has room for improvement and Bill has talked about wanting to see more pressure from the guys up front but what tends to get overlooked is a lot of good things this defense has done as well such as creating turnovers which in most peoples book is a pretty key stat. We are not a great defense right now but we are better than just an average defense.

 

[khiladi]

This is only a half truth.

This notion that our D-lineman have NO pass rush responsibility in this defense and are not asked to put pressure on the QB is bogus.

They are asked to play run first on run downs, but once they read pass they are expected to collapse the pocket, and, if possible, get to the QB. Granted that doesn't allow for them to be pass rushing demons, but it does allow them to pressure the QB and get ocassional sacks. As for clear passing downs (3rd and long - maybe 8 yards or more) they CAN get a little more agressive - we aren't telling them not to pressure the QB.

How some got the idea that we are the only team that has to read run or pass then react accordingly is beyond me.

A lot of teams try and take advantage of the size of our linebackers, and they tend to throw a lot of passes in the flat even on 3rd on long situations. Our LBs aren't the fastest men out there.
The Commanders do it and did it a lot.

Demarcus, even if he does not see the run, has responsibility to play the screen pass. I am sure the defensive coaching staff drills it through their heads to read the quick outs, which leads to in-decisiveness in rushing the pasher.

 

[Stautner]

Good post. Dallas has room for improvement and Bill has talked about wanting to see more pressure from the guys up front but what tends to get overlooked is a lot of good things this defense has done as well such as creating turnovers which in most peoples book is a pretty key stat. We are not a great defense right now but we are better than just an average defense.

That was a good post - I started to write a similar response.

More pressure would elevate this defense to very nearly elite status.

 

[Cowboy4ever]

This is only a half truth.

This notion that our D-lineman have NO pass rush responsibility in this defense and are not asked to put pressure on the QB is bogus.

They are asked to play run first on run downs, but once they read pass they are expected to collapse the pocket, and, if possible, get to the QB. Granted that doesn't allow for them to be pass rushing demons, but it does allow them to pressure the QB and get ocassional sacks - IF they are capable. As for clear passing downs (3rd and long - maybe 8 yards or more) they CAN get a little more agressive - we aren't telling them not to pressure the QB.

How some got the idea that we are the only team that has to read run or pass then react accordingly is beyond me.

The front line.. on running downs.. which is when Canty and Spears are in.. is a read Defense.. they are reactive, not proactive. This is not a Gap shooting D.. They engage the lineman in front of them.. to keep them off the LB'ers. Now once they are engaged, it is harder to get into a good pass rush.. that is why DL are taught differnt techniques to rush the QB, to engage as little as possible.. with the exception of the Bull Rush... I could go on forever,, and I do agree, ,they could do better, but their job is to keep the OL engaged so the LB'ers can make the plays.. and it is very hard to transition to a pass rush from a run technique,, it could be better.. everything can always be better,, and who knows , maybe after more than 2 years experience, they will be better.

 

[Galian Beast]

If this dallas defense is a qbs dream then why is it GROZ members that we're ranked 5th overall in lowest qb rating?

Dominate defenses chicago and baltimore have 23 and 25 sacks respectively, we have 19. Behind chicago by 4 and baltimore by 6...

i dont see a huge difference... thats less than half a sack a game behind chicago...

And Baltimore has given up more yards in the air, and more touchdowns.

Green Bay has 31 sacks, and are giving up nearly 90 qb rating...

 

[Stautner]

The front line.. on running downs.. which is when Canty and Spears are in.. is a read Defense.. they are reactive, not proactive. This is not a Gap shooting D.. They engage the lineman in front of them.. to keep them off the LB'ers. Now once they are engaged, it is harder to get into a good pass rush.. that is why DL are taught differnt techniques to rush the QB, to engage as little as possible.. with the exception of the Bull Rush... I could go on forever,, and I do agree, ,they could do better, but their job is to keep the OL engaged so the LB'ers can make the plays.. and it is very hard to transition to a pass rush from a run technique,, it could be better.. everything can always be better,, and who knows , maybe after more than 2 years experience, they will be better.

DID YOU MISS THAT I WROTE THIS?
They are asked to play run first on run downs, but once they read pass they are expected to collapse the pocket, and, if possible, get to the QB. Granted that doesn't allow for them to be pass rushing demons, but it does allow them to pressure the QB and get ocassional sacks - IF they are capable.

You spent an entire post trying to convince me of something I had already said myself, and completely missed the point that even though this defense doesn't give them the best possible opportunity to pressure the QB, neither does it take away any and every opportunity to do so.

The point is that even though they have to read whether the play is a run or pass first and that hampers them as pass rushers, they are still expected to be a factor in the pass rush and they should be able to at least contribute in that area.

You had said that they aren't even expected to put pressure on the QB and that's just plain wrong. Hell, even Parcells has publically said he wants to see more pressure from them.

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

And Dallas is 9th in pass defense out of 32 teams. Sacks are not the sole indicator of defense it is a glamor stat but not a sole indicator of defensive play.

But you gotta admit: A sack is a drive killer.
It also rattles the QB on subsequent downs.
So, in my book at least, the sack total is something we should look to increase every game.