Byron Jones Regressing?

gimmesix

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life
Messages
40,404
Reaction score
37,703
I said nothing about EVERY player. You made that up. Im talking about Jones. He is a middle of the road, NON play maker. You said it yourself. He is "solid".

First round picks are supposed to become your stars. Nobody drafts in the first round hoping for solid players. Jones is part of the problem with the D, not part of the solution.

If you disagree with that, by all means you are entitled to that opinion.

And I am glad you mentioned Collins. Perfect example of a GREAT safety. Solid vs great. Collins needs no one to stick up for him. His play speaks for itself.

Every team ends up getting some solid starters out of the first round. Not every player drafted in the first round, especially late in the round, ends up being an All-Pro. Yes, you're aiming for those guys, but if you're expecting them, you are totally ignoring the success percentage of the draft.

Jones is a successful late first-round draft pick because he's a solid starter. And yes, we totally agree with Jones being a part of the problem with this defense.
 

gimmesix

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life
Messages
40,404
Reaction score
37,703
And as far as Jones being a starter on almost every team that is an absolute joke. He won the starting job over scrubs and now by default.

I disagree with you on this as well. Again, I think you are underestimating Jones or overestimating the talent on other teams. ... It's much like fans on here not believing Barry Church would be valued in free agency or worthy of being brought back. It seems we live in some kind of different universe than the rest of the league where Dallas players are somehow worse than what other teams put on the field.
 

CyberB0b

Village Idiot
Messages
12,675
Reaction score
14,169
He's out of position. He would be a good strong safety in a cover 3, where he would cover a lot less space and have simpler run assignments.
 

LittleD

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,848
Reaction score
6,086
I hate to say this but, the NFL is littered with 1st round players who looked like Tarzan and played like Jane.
He probably should have stayed as a CB not in the slot. He just doesn't play safety all that well and doesn't
have to knack to zero in to make tackles. All world athlete who just doesn't translate well to the NFL.
 

ondaedg

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,891
Reaction score
3,034
Every team ends up getting some solid starters out of the first round. Not every player drafted in the first round, especially late in the round, ends up being an All-Pro. Yes, you're aiming for those guys, but if you're expecting them, you are totally ignoring the success percentage of the draft.

Jones is a successful late first-round draft pick because he's a solid starter. And yes, we totally agree with Jones being a part of the problem with this defense.

The definition of "solid" really needs to be defined. My definition for solid is a guy who consistently plays their position better than the majority of the league. By that definition Jones is clearly not considered a solid player. Perhaps your definition of solid is a bit more forgiving.
 

Yakuza Rich

Well-Known Member
Messages
18,043
Reaction score
12,385
Both Riddick and Cosell have had good things to say about him in the past. Neither have spoken positively about him this year.

Neither have spoken about him negatively either. It wasn't like they talked about him 5 years ago or even 3 years ago.

Hell, Darren Woodson said that Byron...not Lee...is the MVP of the defense.

Like I said, nobody in the NFL thinks he's even an average safety. They think he's one of the top safeties in the league and because people here don't know what they are watching and are chomping at the bit to exclaim he is another bust all of this silly talk comes about.




YR
 

lukin2006

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,971
Reaction score
19,306
How would we know if Jones is regressing? Maybe he is the victim of poor defensive coaching???
 

gimmesix

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life
Messages
40,404
Reaction score
37,703
The definition of "solid" really needs to be defined. My definition for solid is a guy who consistently plays their position better than the majority of the league. By that definition Jones is clearly not considered a solid player. Perhaps your definition of solid is a bit more forgiving.

I believe I did define it. He covers tight ends effectively most of the time when they're one-on-one, he plays his assignment and makes the tackle against the run most of the time when he is in position (according to the scheme) to do it and his coverage forces QBs to throw to other receivers.

Roy Williams was the definition of a "playmaker." He delivered jarring hits (especially) and made interceptions all but one year in Dallas, ranging from 2 to 5, and even had several sacks. However, he was not a solid player, especially his last couple of years (despite making 5 and 2 interceptions) because he didn't consistently do the things Jones is doing. He had the interceptions because teams were constantly throwing at him because he wasn't great in one-on-one coverage. He had good tackle numbers because he was constantly having to tackle those receivers. And his top tackling method got outlawed.

Darren Woodson had two big interception years out of 12 in Dallas. Most years he did have 1 or two interceptions, but he didn't often force fumbles (4 total) or sack the quarterback (11, but six with none). Some feel he is worth of the Hall of Fame although his stats probably don't support that. I don't think Jones is on his level yet, but Woodson was a really solid player who just did what was asked of him. He made mistakes and wasn't what I would consider a playmaker, but most of the time, he got his job done ... which is the same as Jones.
 

ondaedg

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,891
Reaction score
3,034
I believe I did define it. He covers tight ends effectively most of the time when they're one-on-one, .


Jones has 1 int in 38 games. And that was on an end of half hail Mary. There is nothing solid about that. Period. He is averaging 3 tackles a game and has a total of 3 passes defended. No that is not a mistake. 3. And in the type of D they're running, he should be cashing in on picks. He's probably a good guy and a good locker room player but to suggest he is solid despite his numbers being awful is head scratching.
 

CowboyStar88

Well-Known Member
Messages
23,331
Reaction score
25,813
He's out of position. He would be a good strong safety in a cover 3, where he would cover a lot less space and have simpler run assignments.

He gets trucked when he’s gotta tackle. Not a fan of his at all. Jourdan Lewis tackles better for a corner.
 

DatNguyen59

Member
Messages
250
Reaction score
2
He gets trucked when he’s gotta tackle. Not a fan of his at all. Jourdan Lewis tackles better for a corner.
The thing I hate about his tackling technique is that he is all reactionary. He will run up on the ball carrier and plant his feet waiting for the ball carrier to make a move instead of attacking them. This often puts him out of position to make a good tackle or gets him trucked.
 

Cowboysfan917

Well-Known Member
Messages
972
Reaction score
1,207
Like several others have said, he is a fine player playing in a bad secondary. Next to a better safety than Heath, he probably looks a lot better or if we had another safety, he could play corner. This team had such a horrible offseason on constructing the roster and putting players in situations to succeed.
 

Established1971

fiveandcounting
Messages
5,807
Reaction score
4,327
He was brought in to play DB. He couldn't. Now he is a below average safety and we spent a 1st round pick on him. It was not a good pick. There was a reason he was labeled a combine warrior. He's not a terrible player but he really doesn't do anything well that warranted a 1st round pick.
CB+S=DB, so you meant CB
 

CowboyRoy

Well-Known Member
Messages
57,924
Reaction score
38,930
Every team ends up getting some solid starters out of the first round. Not every player drafted in the first round, especially late in the round, ends up being an All-Pro. Yes, you're aiming for those guys, but if you're expecting them, you are totally ignoring the success percentage of the draft.

Jones is a successful late first-round draft pick because he's a solid starter. And yes, we totally agree with Jones being a part of the problem with this defense.

Again...........not in my book. You guys can be happy with JAG starters in the first round. I am not.

And besides, this is about how good he is or isnt. And he isnt that good. Solid is the word everyone is using on both sides of this argument. That doesnt cut it for me. You can be pleased all you want.
 

CowboyRoy

Well-Known Member
Messages
57,924
Reaction score
38,930
I disagree with you on this as well. Again, I think you are underestimating Jones or overestimating the talent on other teams. ... It's much like fans on here not believing Barry Church would be valued in free agency or worthy of being brought back. It seems we live in some kind of different universe than the rest of the league where Dallas players are somehow worse than what other teams put on the field.

I liked Church. He was great in the run game and a leader of the defense. Play making and coverage? Not so much. Take Church and Jones and put them together and you have a very good safety.

Its really quite simple if you can step away from the fact that they are a Cowboy. There are great, solid, and bad players on every team including ours. Talking about which category they fall in is just part of the discussion. For some fans that makes them cry. OR they over value based on the fact that they are a Cowboy. They do the same thing with players on other teams. Undervalue them. Some Cowboy fans have the ability to be NON biased in their analysis of all players. Some do not.
 

gimmesix

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life
Messages
40,404
Reaction score
37,703
I liked Church. He was great in the run game and a leader of the defense. Play making and coverage? Not so much. Take Church and Jones and put them together and you have a very good safety.

Its really quite simple if you can step away from the fact that they are a Cowboy. There are great, solid, and bad players on every team including ours. Talking about which category they fall in is just part of the discussion. For some fans that makes them cry. OR they over value based on the fact that they are a Cowboy. They do the same thing with players on other teams. Undervalue them. Some Cowboy fans have the ability to be NON biased in their analysis of all players. Some do not.

The problem is those who back a Cowboys players are often seen as homers by those who believe the only way you can be unbiased is if you are putting the player down. I believe several on here who have stated why they believe Jones is not the problem and has been a good pick have given unbiased reasons for it.

It's OK to disagree because it's all opinions, but it doesn't mean you're unbiased just because you show support. I always believed Church is a better player than he's given credit for, another solid player who was overly criticized. My unbiased opinion recognizes that he has faults. He's too slow which causes him trouble when teams are able to target him in the passing game, but he's an assignment sound player who is going to be where he is supposed to be most of the time and is very good in run support. I believe that assessment is supported by the fact that he was snapped up in free agency, showing that he was "undervalued" here.

I also believe Jones is a better player than Church. He's not as strong in run support, but is capable there, and he's much better in coverage with the one-on-one ability that Church did not possess.
 

CowboyRoy

Well-Known Member
Messages
57,924
Reaction score
38,930
The problem is those who back a Cowboys players are often seen as homers by those who believe the only way you can be unbiased is if you are putting the player down. I believe several on here who have stated why they believe Jones is not the problem and has been a good pick have given unbiased reasons for it.

It's OK to disagree because it's all opinions, but it doesn't mean you're unbiased just because you show support. I always believed Church is a better player than he's given credit for, another solid player who was overly criticized. My unbiased opinion recognizes that he has faults. He's too slow which causes him trouble when teams are able to target him in the passing game, but he's an assignment sound player who is going to be where he is supposed to be most of the time and is very good in run support. I believe that assessment is supported by the fact that he was snapped up in free agency, showing that he was "undervalued" here.

I also believe Jones is a better player than Church. He's not as strong in run support, but is capable there, and he's much better in coverage with the one-on-one ability that Church did not possess.

I think he is a solid pick as he is a solid player. But based on his draft status I would call it a disappointing result. When you take a safety in the first round he better be all world. Almost as if taking a back in the first. 2 positions you dont typically take in the first round. And lets not forget that he was drafted as a corner. Seems obvious to me he simply wasnt good enough so they relegated him to safety. No evidence, that is just my take. If the guy is great then you want him at corner.
 

CowboyRoy

Well-Known Member
Messages
57,924
Reaction score
38,930
I suppose, but not like he had any competition for that role. Wasn't like he pushed out an established starter, as we went dirt cheap at the safety spot with projects and vets till we drafted him.

Think he has been decent/good overall, but instant starter doesn't mean much when the competition was non existent.
Our safeties for 2015 were: Church, Heath, Jones, McCray, Tim Scott, Wilcox and Corey White.

Simple logic. Who did he beat out? Nobody. So the starter angle gets tarnished. Assuming he would start for EVERY team in the NFL is ridiculous. Maybe half the teams is more like it.
 

Nightman

Capologist
Messages
27,121
Reaction score
24,038
Simple logic. Who did he beat out? Nobody. So the starter angle gets tarnished. Assuming he would start for EVERY team in the NFL is ridiculous. Maybe half the teams is more like it.
What a dumb standard......'who did they beat out?'....... on the one hand a late 1st is supposed to be an automatic HOFer in your curved scale but on the other hand they are supposed to have to beat out other HOFers on the team already

Give us a break...... an instant 4 year starter at 27 in the draft is a huge win......every year, every position
 
Top