Final Escobar Numbers? 30 catches for 333 yards, 8 TD

[IrishAnto]

Dallas, and most teams, are never going to have two TEs as a staple of their offense.

So, we were blessed to have Witten be a true iron man for the team and for Romo, but suppose Witten had been lost for a season. Would a second round Fazano, Bennett, or Escobar be worth it then? Fazano went on to moderate success in the NFL after his stint in Dallas. Bennett is one of the best receiving/blocking combo TEs in the league. Escobar looks like a bust, but the future isn't yet written. Had Witten been lost, all would have stepped in for the team and as Romo's security blanket. None are what Witten has been, but then how many TEs are going to the Hall of Fame? Is a second rounder too much for a backup just because you were lucky and never had to use them? Is a second rounder too much for a QB, RB, TE, left tackle just because they end up backing up a vital part of your offense?

And let's not forget that these guys were either traded or left in free agency; did we then get something back too? Take Demarcus Lawrence as another second round example, a big one as he was taken at pick #34 after we traded up, giving away picks 47 and 78 to do so. Was that a poor decision just because DLaw isn't a wrecking machine? The Skins used 47 and 78 on Trent Murphy and Spencer Long; are those guys together better than Lawrence? And did you really expect to find another Ware in round two? If you think our first rounder this spring, #28, is going to provide the answer to our pass rush with a star DE, you are delusional.

A second round pick should contribute, but is backing up a key position that you count on, one you can't just throw numbers at, even if you never suffer that key injury, isn't that contributing?

But throwing 2nd round picks at a position "in case" of injury is a luxury teams in the salary cap era can't afford.

No team (or very few anyway) will even spend a 2nd round pick on a backup QB in case of injury and frankly if you were going to do it for any position QB would be it not TE.

 

[WeaponX]

The "massive upgrade" would be the offensive line. What Murray was running behind vs what Bell had then. It's no longer debatable that this line makes everybody look great.



If we had Bell, we let Murray walk out the door without a second thought. If we had Bell, we're not signing McFadden or mistakenly wasting time with Joseph Randle. With Bell, we're not using a 1st round pick on Elliott.

Hope that clears things up.

Re: the offensive line, you're right, no one is (or should be) debating that. Unfortunately, since they're the constant in this equation, that's not really relevant to a Bell vs. Cowboys RB discussion. His production would be similar (very hard to produce better) to what we've had the last few years, but we may have an extra defender from this year to add to the equation had we taken him in 2013. To that point, I do agree we don't take Elliot with the 1st pick this year if we had Bell, but again, how much different is this team in that scenario - you think Jalen Ramsey or Leonard Floyd would have made a difference in the 2 NY games or the GB game (honest question, not sarcasm)? If you do feel that way, how would you feel if we had Jamie Collins on the roster instead of Escobar (in place of having Bell instead of Zeke and subbing one of the aforementioned 2016 defenders for Collins).

Last year probably goes down similarly seeing as Romo went down week 2 and Bell was suspended for the first three weeks, then tore his knee up and missed the rest of the season, and I've already highlighted the 2013-2014 seasons.

Does that clear up my position any for you? Ultimately, I think we both agree that we shouldn't have taken Escobar, right?

 

[WeaponX]

Not picking a fight here just IMO, but had we picked Bell we could have spent last years pick on Jaylon Ramsey (just as an example not saying we should have).

Despite what some here will claim, draft picks have a knock on effect which can last many years.

Agreed - my argument is that we could have gotten a premier defender instead of Escobar or Bell, and still had Zeke this year. I think Jamie Collins would have been a difference maker on this team, especially with experience vs. any rookie defender.

 

[Gaede]

I don't think he does well--anywhere.

He's soft

 

[Stash]

Re: the offensive line, you're right, no one is (or should be) debating that. Unfortunately, since they're the constant in this equation, that's not really relevant to a Bell vs. Cowboys RB discussion. His production would be similar (very hard to produce better) to what we've had the last few years, but we may have an extra defender from this year to add to the equation had we taken him in 2013.

They're not the "constant" for Bell's situation or productivity thus far. There's no way of knowing how well he would do running behind them and no attempts should be made to try.

To that point, I do agree we don't take Elliot with the 1st pick this year if we had Bell, but again, how much different is this team in that scenario - you think Jalen Ramsey or Leonard Floyd would have made a difference in the 2 NY games or the GB game (honest question, not sarcasm)? If you do feel that way, how would you feel if we had Jamie Collins on the roster instead of Escobar (in place of having Bell instead of Zeke and subbing one of the aforementioned 2016 defenders for Collins).

Again, there's no way of knowing how things go after that. It's all worthless, baseless speculation. The only thing we do know is that we could have had arguably the toP running back in the league and chose Gavin Escobar instead. That's not speculation, that's fact.

Last year probably goes down similarly seeing as Romo went down week 2 and Bell was suspended for the first three weeks, then tore his knee up and missed the rest of the season, and I've already highlighted the 2013-2014 seasons.

Last year was a lost season regardless based on what happened. Even a healthy Bell wouldn't change that.

Does that clear up my position any for you? Ultimately, I think we both agree that we shouldn't have taken Escobar, right?

Your position has been clear. And clearly wrong when you mistakenly tried to claim that drafting Bell vs Escobar "we didn't miss much". That's totally off base.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

No we don't.

Yeah we do. Swaim is okay but he is not taking over for Witten. Hanna is toast. Witten is year to year.

You need 3 TE. This year proved that. The need is depth but it is still there.

 

[negativecreep]

He's going to the patriots,that's what my gut is telling me.

 

[dfense]

Meanwhile, Dallas probably resigns Escobar to a team friendly contract making this whole discussion mute.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Let’s say for argument instead of Fasano we picked a RT.

There’s a good chance he’s still playing.

Either way the failure with Fasano led to the selection of Bennett and Bennett’s failure led then to Escobar.

So that’s two players at least.

Yea now Witten is year to year but he’s wasn’t when any of the above were drafted and frankly if Gathers can become something, we won’t need to spend another high pick on a TE to replace Witten.

Then you look at average NFL lifespan and you see that you are wrong. The average career of an NFL player is 3.3 years. The average career of a player that makes an NFL opening day roster is 6. Predicting 10 is wishful thinking. The NFL is a young man's game and most players don't make it to 30 before washing out.

The rest is moving the goalposts. I already stated that we missed given that we have not signed one to a second contract. That does not mean that hitting on a TE would not be a good thing.

 

[Supercowboy1986]

If we let this dude go, and draft another TE like so many Zoners are saying they want, I will eat my shirt.

If we let him go, I pray it's because the front office is content with whom they have.

Is this a bet?

If so, we need video proof

 

[WeaponX]

They're not the "constant" for Bell's situation or productivity thus far. There's no way of knowing how well he would do running behind them and no attempts should be made to try.

They're the constant factor when determining success behind our line (you yourself said that they would make any back look great).


Again, there's no way of knowing how things go after that. It's all worthless, baseless speculation. The only thing we do know is that we could have had arguably the toP running back in the league and chose Gavin Escobar instead. That's not speculation, that's fact.



Last year was a lost season regardless based on what happened. Even a healthy Bell wouldn't change that.
Re: 2015,


Your position has been clear. And clearly wrong when you mistakenly tried to claim that drafting Bell vs Escobar "we didn't miss much". That's totally off base.

Re: the o-line, you yourself just claimed that they would make any RB look great (which would be an argument used to not draft either Bell or Zeke, frankly), so when measuring a back's performance (or expected performance) behind our line, yes they would be the constant. Agreed about the rest being speculation so I'll leave the other potential defensive picks (2013 in my scenario, 2016 in yours) off the table.

In context, to have missed much, Bell would have essentially had to go over 1,900 rush yards and set the single season YFS record in 2014, anything less than that and we wouldn't have missed much based on what we actually got. We both agree 2015 was wasted season (as I said and you repeated), so jumping to this year and to have missed much, again, he'd have to have had at minimum 1,600 yards rushing + his receiving yardage. I've never claimed he wouldn't have been ultra productive with us (similar to Zeke) but my claim that we haven't missed much, in context of what we have gotten from our RBs, is not off base at all.

Final note for clarification, I wasn't arguing Bell vs. Escobar, I was arguing Bell vs. a 2nd round defender from that draft.

This exact discussion is why I typically don't play the hindsight game. I'm simply saying we need an impact defender more than we need Bell, because we don't need Bell at all.

 

[John813]

His td per catch ratio ain't bad lol. Too bad it's only 30 catches and over a span of 4 years.

 

[Longboysfan]

There's only one ball to go around.

It's a numbers game and targets.

 

[Stash]

Yeah we do. Swaim is okay but he is not taking over for Witten. Hanna is toast. Witten is year to year.

You need 3 TE. This year proved that. The need is depth but it is still there.

Sounds like our difference of opinion is about Gathers. I expect him to be a part of the team's rotation for 2017.

 

[TNCowboy]

The only reason that anyone can call the Steeler's play Escobar's "shining moment" or whatever you want to term it, is because Leary and Frederick absolutely destroyed the DL, and Smith buried the ILB. They collapse them so far to the right that even with Jarvis Jones trucking Escobar, Escobar held up enough that EE could get through clean. If Frederick and Leary didn't destroy the Steelers interior DL, Jones would have blown the play up at Escobar's expense. It's foolish to try to use this one play as any kind of indicator that Escobar is a quality player, because it isn't, and he isn't. He's a jag.

 

[willia451]

Gone.

 

[Stash]

Re: the o-line, you yourself just claimed that they would make any RB look great (which would be an argument used to not draft either Bell or Zeke, frankly), so when measuring a back's performance (or expected performance) behind our line, yes they would be the constant. Agreed about the rest being speculation so I'll leave the other potential defensive picks (2013 in my scenario, 2016 in yours) off the table.

In context, to have missed much, Bell would have essentially had to go over 1,900 rush yards and set the single season YFS record in 2014, anything less than that and we wouldn't have missed much based on what we actually got. We both agree 2015 was wasted season (as I said and you repeated), so jumping to this year and to have missed much, again, he'd have to have had at minimum 1,600 yards rushing + his receiving yardage. I've never claimed he wouldn't have been ultra productive with us (similar to Zeke) but my claim that we haven't missed much, in context of what we have gotten from our RBs, is not off base at all.

It's totally off base. We just used the #4 overall pick - our greatest draft commodity in decades - to fill a position that would have already been filled. Try to argue that.

Final note for clarification, I wasn't arguing Bell vs. Escobar, I was arguing Bell vs. a 2nd round defender from that draft.

This exact discussion is why I typically don't play the hindsight game. I'm simply saying we need an impact defender more than we need Bell, because we don't need Bell at all.

I was arguing your offbase comment about "not missing much". It's completely false.

 

[Stash]

Meanwhile, Dallas probably resigns Escobar to a team friendly contract making this whole discussion mute.

Oh, I think that would still give us plenty to 'talk' about!

 

[Supercowboy1986]

Honestly, both of you make good points and this is a good discussion. I wasn't aware bell was 1 pick after Escobar.

I do agree that it was just a matter of timing. Murray was good in 13 and 14 while bell at that time wasn't the player he is now. Ironically both Murray and bell were top 5 in rushing this year, so it could be a wash. Murray was also finishing up his rookie deal which is why maybe the Cowboys weren't interested in bell at the time. It would of been sweet to take bell over Escobar though.

I also agree that taking bell would of saved the resources used for randle, McFadden, Morris, and even Elliot. If we would of taken bell and made him our franchise rb our drafts would most likely have played out very differently.

Explain please? Bell missed most of last year with an ACL injury after his supsension. He was great in 2014, but we were also 12-4 and Murray was the OPOY, so where's the massive upgrade? In 2013 he was a rookie and Murray was a pro bowler. Again, he's absolutely a great player (top 3 back in the league for sure) but how are we a much different team with him vs. what we had with Murray then, and Zeke now?

The "massive upgrade" would be the offensive line. What Murray was running behind vs what Bell had then. It's no longer debatable that this line makes everybody look great.

If we had Bell, we let Murray walk out the door without a second thought. If we had Bell, we're not signing McFadden or mistakenly wasting time with Joseph Randle. With Bell, we're not using a 1st round pick on Elliott.

Hope that clears things up.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Sounds like our difference of opinion is about Gathers. I expect him to be a part of the team's rotation for 2017.

I have no expectation of him whatsoever. There is little to nothing to go by other than Broaddus and he regurgitates suspect hearsay regarding Gathers.