My open letter to Jim Reeves at FWST...

[Cochese]

Some players walked all over him in Oakland, but you have to look at the in context. Find me an Oakland coach in the last 20 years that hasn't been walked all over. Heck, Art Shell is one of the baddest mofos in the game and they walked all over him twice. It's a culture in that locker room that starts at the top.

The players walked over him in Washington too.

"Norv did not threaten players," guard Keith Sims said. "Some guys took advantage of him. Terry (Robiski) -- you're not going to take advantage of him."

 

[dbair1967]

Have you been reading the comments that Jerry Rice made about him?...

About the utter lack of respect that players had for him?...

yeah, because the Raiders are known for utter respect for their other coaches arnt they?

the inmates have been running that asylum for years

David

 

[Hostile]

Have you been reading the comments that Jerry Rice made about him?...

About the utter lack of respect that players had for him?...

Let me ask you this, and please just be honest.

Look at the Coaches who have followed Norv at Washington. (I'll get you a list and their records if it will help.)

Now look at the ones who have followed him at Oakland. (Ditto.)

Has either team been markedly better by his ouster? Where the success is tangible and evident that he was the problem?

Until you can show me that ridding themselves of him meant they got rid of the albatross that had them doomed, well then you're just flapping your gums.

 

[5Stars]

yeah, because the Raiders are known for utter respect for their other coaches arnt they?

the inmates have been running that asylum for years

David

Tell us about the RedStink fiasco...how was that?

 

[Hunter71]

Some players walked all over him in Oakland, but you have to look at the in context. Find me an Oakland coach in the last 20 years that hasn't been walked all over. Heck, Art Shell is one of the baddest mofos in the game and they walked all over him twice. It's a culture in that locker room that starts at the top.

This...

From the same person who wouldn't mind Campo coming back...

Let's see...

Gruden did a pretty good job with an owner who was meddlesome and players who couldn't be coached...

And Callahan took that same dysunctional team to the SB...

BUT...

That doesn't matter for OL' Norv because we have excuses for him...

He was an OC for Aikman so therefore all is well here...

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

yeah, because the Raiders are known for utter respect for their other coaches arnt they?

the inmates have been running that asylum for years

David

You do know the raiders were not the only team he coached with...you do also know that it is not just raider players saying this....don't you?

 

[Everlastingxxx]

Last night i dreamed Garrett was named the head coach, so relax.

 

[wileedog]

yeah, because the Raiders are known for utter respect for their other coaches arnt they?

the inmates have been running that asylum for years

David

Actually no, Gruden ran a tight ship.

One could argue the current decline started with Callahan, and exploded under the lax rule of Norv, especially with the addition of Moss.

Those who want to excuse Norv's time there are not acknowledging that he was part of the problem.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Let me ask you this, and please just be honest.

Look at the Coaches who have followed Norv at Washington. (I'll get you a list and their records if it will help.)

Now look at the ones who have followed him at Oakland. (Ditto.)

Has either team been markedly better by his ouster? Where the success is tangible and evident that he was the problem?

Until you can show me that ridding themselves of him meant they got rid of the albatross that had them doomed, well then you're just flapping your gums.

I don't understand your point, how does Oak and Wash not being able to find a better coach, justify NOrv's suckiness? could it be possible that Norv *** things up beyond repair?

 

[StanleySpadowski]

Last 20 years?

Gruden got that team doing well enough that when Callahan took over they went to the Superbowl.

What about norv with Washington.

What about our very own Woodsen talking about it recently.

Come on guys...are you seeing a pattern here?

And Chuckie ran out of town like a rat deserting a sinking ship.

You mentioned Washington also. The "lack of discipline" didn't start until the last few years. Did Turner change or did the situation change.

No coach in any sport can be successful over the long haul if certain players know that he's not really the boss and they can go over his head.

That happened to Turner in both Washington and Oakland and happened to Gailey in Dallas.

I really believe that Jones has learned this lesson so I don't fear Turner or anyone else coaching the Cowboys as most seem to. The only thing I fear is another coach simply looking to collect a paycheck.

 

[StanleySpadowski]

Actually no, Gruden ran a tight ship.

One could argue the current decline started with Callahan, and exploded under the lax rule of Norv, especially with the addition of Moss.

Those who want to excuse Norv's time there are not acknowledging that he was part of the problem.

Gruden tried to run a tight ship but didn't get backup from the top. That's why he bailed.

 

[Hostile]

I don't understand your point, how does Oak and Wash not being able to find a better coach, justify NOrv's suckiness?

See the Cardinals for reference. Sometimes a situation just sucks.

Unless you want to tell me that there is absolutely a guaranteed solution in Oakland and Washington that doesn't require a complete re-thinking of strategies and philosophies. Then I'm going to ask you for proof, and of course, you won't have any. Because there isn't any.

In a parity driven NFL when teams cannot adapt they falter and sometimes it doesn't matter who is at the helm. Washington reached back into it's most gloried past and still can't fix it.

Ironically the same can be said of Dallas in a way. I've never said Norv was a solution here. He's down my list of candidates I want. Way down it in fact. But the witch hunt to discredit him is ridiculous to the point of absurd.

 

[wileedog]

Gruden tried to run a tight ship but didn't get backup from the top. That's why he bailed.

But you can't remotely compare the clubhouse situation of Gruden with the zoo that the Raiders are today.

Norv had a hand in that.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

Man alive.

I think I woke up in the Twilight zone...or maybe in Bizarro Superman world.

Some of the very same people that were celebrating Bill being gone because he just did not get the job done.

Are making excuses or ok with the possible hire of NORV TURNER.

A HC that does not have 1/10th the coaching history of the Tuna.

I guess they forgot about the Tuna changing the laughing stock of the league (at the time) Patriots around. I guess they forget him turning the Jets around, I guess they forget about him making the boys better.

Yet they are willing to dismiss Norv Turners HC record, they are willing to dismiss mutliple players from different teams saying he was basically not a good HC because he got ran over.

We got one guy on here saying he would be ok with Dave Campo being HC again.

PLEASE...someone wake me from this nightmare.

I have heard time and time and time again from some of these posters that we should not settle for mediocre...yet we are talking about hiring just that.

I would rather hire a young guy, there are some out there right now believe it or not, or just give the gig to Jason now and be done with it.

This is just crazy the lengths that people are going to ok norv while bashing bill in the past.

Honestly ...am I secretly on candid camera...OK...where are you Fundt...haha you got me.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

But the witch hunt to discredit him is ridiculous to the point of absurd.

don't you think the endless excuses for him are a little absurd too?

 

[StanleySpadowski]

But you can't remotely compare the clubhouse situation of Gruden with the zoo that the Raiders are today.

Norv had a hand in that.

Turner may have some part in that but I'd blame Al Davis' gradual descent in senility much more.

 

[Hostile]

Actually no, Gruden ran a tight ship.

One could argue the current decline started with Callahan, and exploded under the lax rule of Norv, especially with the addition of Moss.

Those who want to excuse Norv's time there are not acknowledging that he was part of the problem.

Yes, Gruden did and how did the team respond to his tight ship methods? They eventually ran him out of town basically. Since then despite the windfall of draft picks they got from Tampa they can't do squat. They go get high priced Free Agents and they fail too.

The players only respond to the message sent. In Oakland that message was, too much discipline is a bad thing.

 

[Hostile]

don't you think the endless excuses for him are a little absurd too?

Not equal in nature.

 

[wileedog]

Ironically the same can be said of Dallas in a way. I've never said Norv was a solution here. He's down my list of candidates I want. Way down it in fact. But the witch hunt to discredit him is ridiculous to the point of absurd.

The spin job to absolve him equally so.

This idea would be universally hated on this board if Turner hadn't been here during the glory years and gotten an endorsement from his good friends Troy and Jimmy.

Personally I've spent a trying couple of months having people shove "you are what your record says you are" in my face. To have some of those same people turning around finding every excuse in the book to wipe away 51-82 is more than a little 'absurd'.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

See the Cardinals for reference. Sometimes a situation just sucks.

Unless you want to tell me that there is absolutely a guaranteed solution in Oakland and Washington that doesn't require a complete re-thinking of strategies and philosophies. Then I'm going to ask you for proof, and of course, you won't have any. Because there isn't any.

In a parity driven NFL when teams cannot adapt they falter and sometimes it doesn't matter who is at the helm. Washington reached back into it's most gloried past and still can't fix it.

Ironically the same can be said of Dallas in a way. I've never said Norv was a solution here. He's down my list of candidates I want. Way down it in fact. But the witch hunt to discredit him is ridiculous to the point of absurd.

How do you explain...New Orleans and the Bengals...recent teams?

Same ownership, both teams known for being terrible for years.

Now...much more respected, although NOLA still needs to see if it can maintain that.

Look..I understand Washington and the Raiders...but the bottom line is he did not pan out there.

That old line of Bills that so many like to throw back into his face....you are what you are, talking about your record.